"That is one of the biggest heresies going. God did not write His word in cryptic language and secret code so we have to have the divines of hundreds of years ago teaching us the meaning of His word."

This is almost laughable coming from someone who is perhaps the leading person on this site promoting heresy!

This woman Abigail has been used on this site to create more division, schism and disunity than perhaps anyone outside of JD (who invents new doctrines daily).

Abigail, you would do yourself a great service personally to spend time understanding the role of a minister and ruling elder in the Scriptures. I know that you believe you have been given such amazing gifts to preach and teach on this site, but to lead everyone to believe that a few posted passages from the bible qualifies anyone to speak with advanced learning and knowledge of God's divine revealed Word is another heresy you are promoting.

"Yamil, bibles have not disappeared from the I.H.C.C. services. In fact the leadership has started out a program of giving NASBs to newcomers."

This gives me a lot more background that I needed about Gil Rugh church. Although I agree with much of what I've read, I would strongly encourage its members (excluding Jim who is their communications director! to reconsider their form of church government in their constitution:

"All members have the right to appeal to the Board of Elders and present their case any time during and after the disciplinary process. A written request presented to any Board member is required for a hearing before the Board of Elders."

There is no such thing as an appeal to the same board of Elders who have ruled against you in displinary matters. The right of appeal should be to a higher court. This church government is called Presbyterianism and is opposed to those who teach congregationalism or independency.

The culture promoted by this sect is growing wildly around the world, and much of it has begun in America. I was recently in Nigeria and saw some of my employees getting all excited by some of these Pentecostal pastors, and even one former Senator I know there has been studying under one of these Pastors. It claims to be the largest Pentecostal and Church group in all of Africa, if not in the world. It rivals the sizes of the mega churches promoted here in America.

It see first hand this spreading across all of Africa, Asia, Central Asia and parts of the middle east. Some growth is happening in Russia and Ukraine especially.

Unfortunately, the entire movement is based upon how much money you can provide to the church, how often can you speak in unknown tongues to prove you have the Spirit of God, how many miracles can you perform, how many gifts of healing can you show us to prove your relationship to Christ, etc.? Can you cast out devils then you are Chosen?

Thank you for your kind comments. I talked with Dad last night just before he was leaving for the 5:30pm Saturday mass. How in the world did Rome move the Lord's Day to Saturday, then it dawned on me they have accomodated to reach as many people as possible. Those who choose to work on Sunday's can get their hour mass in on Saturday night, or if you have plans to sit in front of the TV all day on Sunday, this is a good option. Some people gamble on Sunday during football season, and this is a way to make the kickoff's of most of the games unless you rise early for the 8:30am mass. Not fun in cold weather, so Saturday is the perfect option.

I know as my parents used to encourage me to go to Saturday night mass if I did not want to get out of bed in the morning or did not want to miss the kick offs. In fact, as an alter boy, I used to try to get my Saturday night mass with the priest so I had my Sunday's open. The priest really did not care as he indeed needed alter boys for both Saturday and Sunday, and if I could get my name on the list it was one less problem in finding alter boys.

Your going to be surprised that the Arminians and semi-Pelagians on this site have answers to all those standard questions below.

I know, it surprises me too, as I have read them in various ways by these folks, but watch and see what they post.

My hope is that they will respond to each of the questions as they are going to take some of them some thought and research before they begin posting passages.

You will not find one posting by them on here of any verse referring to the elect, as that is a word they refuse to deal with and the word chosen is twisted in such a way to ignore it.

Again, the issue simply is ordo salutis and these folks really do believe that God died for everyone on the Cross and the whole world is loved by God. They really believe He died for all and only those who they can convince with their "spiritual gifts of tongues, healings, miracles, etc." will see their works of holiness, and cooperate with God to get others saved through believing alone.

You twisted Wayne's quote to lead people to believe that he meant something he did not mean.

There is not a Calvinist or true gospel preacher that does not teach that regeneration is an act of the Trinity, that includes the Holy Spirit.

"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;" (Tit.3:5)

Thanks for the link below it is very interesting. I might tend to disagree with Spurgeon on this quote:

"HAAK'S ANNOTATIONS [13] come to us as the offspring of the famous Synod of Dolt, and the WESTMINSTER ANNOTATIONS [14] as the production of a still more venerable assembly; but if, with my hat off, bowing profoundly to those august conclaves of master minds, I may venture to say so, I would observe that they furnish another instance that committees seldom equal the labours of individuals. The notes are too short and fragmentary to be of any great value. The volumes are a heavy investment."

I have found the Westminster Annotations of excellent research without a lot of additional commentary. They have done a great job of almost addressing every verse in a short way, whereas other commentaries often combine too many passages or eliminate entire passages.

I have not seen Haak's Annotations, but I almost prefer Annotations so I would love to find them someday republished.

Of course, beyond your own modern views of Scripture that often have never been witnessed by any generation, can you share with me some document that has the support of any other Ministers or Elders beyond yourself. For example, if you could give me someone that agrees with you on your views, I would love to read them to see how your teachings have support beyond your own silly pride.

For example, the Ministers and Elders who sat in the Westminster Assembly each took the following Promise and Vow before they entered the Assembly and the floor to debate the Scriptures.

"The Promise and Vow taken by every Member (more than 120 men-Walt) admitted to sit in the Assembly.

I, A.B., do seriously promise and vow, in the presence of Almighty God,

That in this Assembly, whereof I am a member, I will maintain nothing in point of doctrine, but what I believe to be most agreeable to the word of God; nor in point of discipline, but what may make most for God’s glory, and the peace and good of this church."

JD, now, I know that you reject this entire period of history as unfaithful to your current views, as you do with all church history, but can you give me just one modern author who supports your views?

Just there list of Cardinals (e.g., 120) exceed the list of our own Covenanter congregation. As I listened to the power of the organs play, and saw the young boys in the choir signing fully dressed in their garmets, I could only think back to my own childhood following the same images and instrumental music.

The camera scanned the enormous church and 120 Cardinals all dressed in red, and took close up shots of statutes of saints graven to be worshipped by all, and the Poniff being treated as the earth's "holy father". It is the way that 3 billion followers are taught that one man has been given the keys to the kingdom on earth as in heaven, and any vocal opposition (as history shows) will be crushed into silence.

Sure, I would love to see some information on the book as I am not familiar with the author. It does have a compelling title.

Murray,

The problem with the Arminian rejecting all extra biblical testimony is that they ignore the same standard for themselves. As we see from so many on here who vocally object to any sort of subordinate standard or commentary on the Scriptures, they don't see their own commentary as equally as questionable.

I have seen this especially in the "holy spirit" crowd who love to speak of their gifts, and hand select passages that can be used to promote their sect, but when certain passages prove that the "holy spirit" they have conflicts with the Holy Spirit speaking in God's Word, they jump to rapidly paste more Scripture.

Trying to use other commentary from faithful Ministers and Church Courts on the same verses are immediately rejected as coming from "dead men" and thereby not worthy of the allegedly "correct" revelation they have been given on these passages. Any demonstration to show these "holy spirit" folks their same interpretations has been proven in history to be heretical is again totally rejected by pasting more Scripture and claiming they only use the Bible.

"Regarding these others, eschatalogy is the least of their problems. They can't get past the first principles of the Gospel, yet they take it upon themselves to teach. Go figure."

I could not agree more. I've been watching this site on and off for several years, and have learned a lot about how people's presuppositions drive scripture. Epistemology is fundamental.

One thing that has become so clear to me in watching the Arminians, is that they really border on a hatred of history, and definitely reject almost all ministers view of Scripture outside their own local Pastor. This has really been a common thread with most of these Arminians, and I cannot for the life of me understand where this presupposition comes from in this generation.

Thanks for the comments. I don't mind getting targeted by these guys as a scribe or pharisee, since I know that over the course of my life I have reversed my presuppositions to the Scriptures many times. Since my commitment to read scripture every day systematically, and start from the beginning and then complete it, it has been a good and faithful practice. I will finish the Gospel of Matthew this coming week and will keep going until I finish the entire NT. Then, I will start again from Genesis and finish it cover-to-cover. I started this practice in January 1997 and am almost through it 38 times this month. I should possibly finish it all by December 31, but if not it is about 3.8 times per year. The more I read it the more it becomes faster to me, and the more I learn.

When Kevin or others challenge me to prove eschatalogy, it is obviously not something I can do since I have a lot of unanswered questions myself. I do like to toss out ideas from other ministers who have studied it much more than I have, and spend time comparing the OT with the NT and visa versa.

I hope you are not limiting Christ the LORD to the NT as it sounds. If you somehow are saying that nobody was regenerated in the OT (which seems to be what you are saying), you are in error about the power of the SPIRIT in the OT bringing men to a saving knowledge of the LORD and God, who were all waiting for Christ as a sacrifice to end all sacrifices. Some of the language may have changed from the Hebrew to the Greek, but not the promises of God.

The NEW King James says:

"He is the image of the invisible God, the ***firstborn over all creation.*** 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. 18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence." (Col.1:15-18)

The point I was trying to make is that I don't think you have to place the rapture pre-tribulation as the Apostles were not looking for it pre-trib.

They had the Scriptures like you in the OT and were studying the major/minor prophets to learn more about Matt. 24 and if the Preterists are right that everything has been fulfilled in the destruction of Jerusalem (70AD) and Nero was the little horn, then your view would have seen the rapture pre-trib to be consistent.

Obviously, many dislike the reformers on here, since our generation generally believes we are a much more brilliant bible students, but historical post millenialism was viewed as the most consistent system when trying to tie together the old and new testaments systematically.

Pre-mill's would do better if they did not hang all their hope on a pre-trib rapture, as once I looked at is very diligently I reversed my views, and became a much more concerned Christian if the hammer fell on the unfaithful Church as we see in the OT judgments.

The preterist post mill view is really impossible if one claims a full preterist view, but they indeed are the only consistent preterists. If Rev. was written pre-70 AD and they hold that the entire book must shortly come to pass, then the view holds weight.

"The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John" (Rev.1:1)

The problem is that in the greek "shortly come to pass" or "time is at hand" can mean "shortly begin to appear". I've brought this up to some preterists and they back down on ***all*** of the book of revelation being fulfilled, and move to the partial preterist view.

The problem with this is that again they are not consistent with their view that shortly means shortly. Chilton's "Paradise Restored" book followers claims he has the most detailed verse by verse treament of Revelations, and although he was a partial preterist he became eventually a full preterist (aka--a consistent preterist) and taught the second coming was already past.

From here take them to Dan. 2 & 7 and show them the four beasts and that the little horn of Daniel is the Papacy and not Nero.

Do you think the Apostles and early church were looking for a rapture at any minute as they were studying the OT and NT verses?

It is obvious most scholars hold it to be coming just before the second bodily coming, and even if Van Impe and the boys teach it is pre-trip, my question is what makes the verses different from the time of the Apostles until this generation?

In other words, if the Apostles and early church thought the rapture was coming in the next 15 minutes as you teach, can we find any writings of this view beyond the futurist theory written about by the Jesuits?

Yes, of course, I know your position is that the Bible tells us the rapture is coming immediately and maybe in the next 15 minutes, but beyond this view of yours, is it possible to point to others who share this view with you besides the Jesuits?

I know Van Impe has a list of early church fathers, but I reject his list as being correct.

I don't have time to get into a lengthy discussion on this topic. It sounds like you are perhaps a christian identity or even a conspiracy focused student that drives his Scripture texts.

I never said that Roman Catholics are to blame for anything. Before you allege others to be deceivers you may want to watch your own tongue. My parents are Roman Catholics and I don't blame them for anything involving eschatology. They are ignorant of even what the Vatican and the Pope himself teaches. They follow church bulletins and weekly mass as a means to stay informed. The fox news channel and MSNBC are the other primary sources of their education, and blaming the lost sheep is not my position.

Indeed, on the contrary to me, many of the reformed I know are all amil. The preterists (full-whoever they are? or partial) seem to be loosing steam since Rushdoony lost some of his followers.

The christian reformed, dutch reformed and all those circling Grand Rapids publishers have got the amil views most fast forward throughout the world. You are in good company with the publishers.

Obviously the reformation was significant, but it was only a glimpse of what the future earthly millennium could look like regarding covenanting and unity. The standards that came out of Scotland are amazing in my mind, and to bring about such a clear testimony against Rome has never been witnessed before by church and state.