"How much more shall the blood of Christ...purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God." (Heb. 9:14)
Evidently the blood of Christ has power to make clean and holy and purge the conscience, but I haven't found a scripture which says Christ's blood is infused into us and flowing in our veins or whatever Spiritual was implying earlier. However, the scriptures are full of testimonies of how the benefits of Christ shed blood are applied to us. "Without the shedding of blood there is no remission," "Justified by his blood," among others.
Lurker and Wayne, I can almost see that 2 Peter 2:1 upholds the Limited Atonement understanding of Christ's sacrifice. His sacrifice bought them, or is sufficient to pay for them, but they remain as false teachers are are swiftly destroyed.
Abigail, it sounds like you were a wandering sheep who just happened to visit a church and you responded to the call of the Good Shepherd. He chooses us before we can come to him. I came to faith as the Scriptures spoke directly to my lost condition and I believed the testimony of my salvation written on the pages in the Bible. It should not come as a surprise that one of my favorite verses is "Born again of the word of God which liveth and abideth forever." And "not of the will of man, but of God." No man persuaded me to pick up the Bible and read and believe it's testimony. All I can say is "faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God."
From what I've learned the Reformed folk confess that the truly saved will live righteously by faith, according to the scripture "The just(righteous) shall live by faith." They have even spoken against antinomianism(lawlessness and unrighteousness basically). The false Christian professors may for a while look pious and holy but will fall away and be in their sins yet again and never are preserved to the end confessing their faith and overcoming the enemy. God writes his law on their hearts and they live accordingly because God works in them. There is nothing in and of one's own self to work righteousness. Any righteousness one has or does as a believer is attributed to God working in them. This is the sum of the Reformed position to the best of my knowledge. True and justifying faith never stands alone but is the only way of any kind of righteousness, actual or positional. I'll let Seaton and others concur or correct me or add to this. I'm interested in learning more.
Thanks CBC. Thanks also to Alan, Seaton and Lurker for clear explanations of God's grace and sovreignty. Lurker, may the knowledge of God's sovreignty give you peace and direction during this time of trial in your family. "The eternal God is thy refuge and underneath are the everlasting arms."
Abigail, Wayne is right to acknowledge the necessity of obedience and baptism. I thought I'd add to it, at least agreeing with him on that point. Also multiple Protestant confessions make reference to the Acts 2 passage, even if understandings differ as to what baptism is all about. Christians over the centuries have evidently testified to that passage and I see no reason to have a different opinion. Good night.
It is a command, no doubt. If someone asks me what to do, I tell them what was said on the day of Pentecost recorded in Acts 2:38. It worked then. It will work now. Those who repent shall be baptized and those baptized shall be prayed for that they be strengthened with the gift of the Holy Ghost which is promised that they shall receive. I think I'll leave it at that. Time for bed. "Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call."(Acts 2:37-39)
Wayne, what are you trying to do with 1 Pet. 3:21? It's very confusing. Are you implying Spirit baptism is insufficient to remove filth of the flesh, provided this filth means sin, or are you implying water baptism is for removing dirt and debris from the body?
How does Acts 2:38 fit into your scheme. Peter gives a three-fold exhortation with baptism and the receiving of the Spirit being mentioned separately, or is now the Spirit (in 1 Cor.) just automatically given at Baptism? To make your idea work, the Spirit comes simultaneously at baptism then. However, the record in Acts shows this is not always the case.
Spiritual, no, not necessarily. I think you misunderstood. Without the Spirit one cannot walk accordingly. I just want to be sure I'm owing to God the glory for the path I'm walking on, for keeping me from getting my robes soiled, that I'm not ahead of Him and to let him be in control of my life. I don't want to be found fighting God or working of my own will to make it to heaven. It brings peace to know He's in control of everything, that he has called me and will carry me at all times. I believe Lurker and others have made some valid points and that I have begun to step into uncharted areas which emphasize man over the sovreignty of God and His Word. Good night all
The great apostasy is closing in. Considering the predictions in the Bible, I don't think Christians will ever be protected by hate crime bills. Those who submit to God's authority as established in the Scriptures will be persecuted. However, take heart, be of good cheer even in the midst of trouble, because God is in command and will preserve his church.
Thanks Lurker. I understand and apologize to you and others for taking up your time with arguing. I will research more of this. I was struck quite strongly about the matter(a conviction inside me which I can't describe) for the last couple of days when considering our exchange here. I don't want to stand before God in my own righteousness and be condemned for working my way to heaven. And I don't want to eat my robe of righteousness(thanks for the slightly humorous analogy you gave me earlier). Without that robe we won't enter. Thanks for the wake-up call. I appreciate it. Sounds like it's time for me to get back to regular Bible study and devotion time. May the Lord rescue me from uncharted waters.
So many testimonies from various nations about a flood should tell us something about the scriptural record. I believe it happened literally because of man's unrepentant heart toward God. And so now in this present time, the message is to repent, because in the future the world will be judged again, but not by water; rather by fire.
Lurker and other Reformed believers, do you believe the Limited Atonement doctrine helps combat the idea of universal salvation or the idea that in the end all will be saved? I was thinking about this and it seems logical to say Limited Atonement is a tool with which to combat universalist ideas. Any input would be helpful.
Lurker, That's not how I see infused righteousness. Christ said they'd be filled, not by filling themselves or trying to do right, but will be filled and thus doing right because they have it in them. It all goes back to God working in us. How else do you explain the changed drunkard, homosexual, theif, murderer, etc etc. They didn't change themselves. Something was put into them(righteousness) and they were transformed. Maybe my anology appears poor because it challenges a commonly held idea. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt with Paul's word, so therefore we're declared righteous and filled with righteousness. I've been studying up on Limited Atonenment and you know what, it may not be the offensive and unbiblical doctrine I once thought it was, if what I have read is an accurate presentation of Reformed doctrine. I'm getting the picture that the Atonement is "limited" or definite in who benefits from it--namely believers(with which I agree). It's powerful enough for the whole world but only believers are beneficiaries of its work(agree again). It's meant for a particular group(believers) and so in that sense it's limited(agree here also). Am I understanding this correctly? I would like some honest discussion on this Reformed faith because it does interest me. Thanks.
Kenny, To me it's both a failure of the management of property, money, fame and employees and also exploitation as you pointed out. The Bible says the love of money is the root of evil and that's evident in what has happened at ORU. Just read the list of allegations. When people get their eyes set on the creature instead of Creator, things go amiss. It has apparently happened at ORU and has happened elsewhere too.
Seaton, Abigail has repeatedly acknowledge the power of the Holy Spirit to necessitate works of righteousness(consider the fruits of the Spirit listed in the Scriptures). Apparently she's not a heretic. Why isn't Dort heretical? Protestants before TULIP rejected things as erroneous. Maybe it's Dort that's in the wrong. Also, isn't the motto of Calvinists "Semper Reformanda" or "Always Reforming," but it sounds like they want Reformation to stop when they see convenient.
Lurker, concerning infusion. Why did Jesus say they'd be filled who hunger for righteousness. If I'm hungry, what good is food if I'm only covered in it and not filled? And Paul says many are made righteous.
Interesting discussion, but I need to get to bed. For any visitors who stumble upon this site in search of remedying their depraved condition and asking what they must do, I give unto them the Apostle Peter's words: "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."