"The history of six thousand years of evil has heen lost on man. He refuses to read its awful lesson regarding sin and God's displeasure against the sinner, which that history records. The flood of evil that has issued forth from one single sin he has forgotten. The death, the darkness, the sorrow, the sickness, the tears, the weariness, the madness, the confusion, the bloodshed, the furious hatred between man and man, making Earth a suburb of Hell -- all this is overlooked or misread. Man repels the thought that sin is crime which God hates with an infinite hate and which he, in his righteousness, must condemn and avenge." (H Bonar)

Don't forget to tell your people about these verses either side of that chapter.

Ro 11:5 "Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant ACCORDING TO THE ELECTION OF GRACE.
6 And if by grace, then is it NO MORE OF WORKS: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the ELECTION hath OBTAINED IT, and the rest were BLINDED."

And....

Ro 9.27 "Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a **REMNANT** shall be SAVED:"

Thus God has ordained HIS methodology and HE don't forget is immutable!!

Oh and

Matt 22:14 "For many are called, but FEW ARE CHOSEN."

1Cor2.12 "Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; *THAT WE MIGHT KNOW* the things that are freely given to us of God."

Infecting Theological Untruth wrote:
Two souls accepted the Lord as their personal Savior last Tuesday night.

The problem JD, with your version of PreDestination is NOT on where it ends, - But on where it begins.

The Greek word here is "proorizw" can also mean "fore-ordain" [4309]

The PreDestinating was DONE BY GOD ALONE before the foundation of the world as God said

Eph 1.4 According as he hath chosen us in him *BEFORE* the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having *PREDESTINATED* *US* unto the *ADOPTION* of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of *HIS WILL*

Ro 8.29 For whom he did *FOREKNOW,* HE ALSO did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them HE also CALLED: and whom HE called, them HE also justified: and whom HE justified, them HE also glorified.

CHOSEN you = Election by God alone

to salvation = of the Elect

through sanctification of the Spirit = The Spirit sanctifies during your life

and belief of the truth: = The Holy Spirit edifies the sinner with God's wisdom. This Truth sets you free.

14 Whereunto he called you = Two callings - One general. Two effectual an inner calling only for the Elect.

by our gospel, = The non-Elect cannot hear the Truth nor receive the love of the Truth.

to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

The Elect are justified, sanctified and glorified
Ro 8.17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
Ro 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Ro 8.1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them *WHICH ARE IN* Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Ro 8:17 And if children, then heirs; HEIRS OF GOD and joint-heirs WITH Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also GLORIFIED together.
18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the GLORY which shall be REVEALED IN US.

Thus it is the predestinated ELECT who are glorified

v24 ELECT are saved by hope.
v25 the glorified body is our hope.
v26 with the Spirit's help.
v27 the Lord hears.
v28 all things are working for the good of God's ELECT.
v29 God foreknew the ELECT.
--- God predestinated the ELECT to be conformed to that glory.
v30 The predestinated ELECT are THE Called.
--- The same ELECT are justified
--- These are the ELECT who are "glorified"
v31 God is the saving strength of the ELECT. (Psalm 28.8)
v32 God will provide all. Thus can we "Persevere."
v33 God's ELECT are justified by God Himself.
v34 Christ intercedes for His ELECT.
v35 Nothing can separate the ELECT. from Christ
v36 The ELECT are the Persecuted.
v37 The ELECT will conquer in Christ.
v38 Nothing can stop the ELECT. (Perseverance)
v39 Election is guaranteed. Promised and Covenanted. Why this confirms TULIP.

For at least three years that I know of, we have been trying to teach you the Truth and proper exegesis from the Reformed Church. But you seem to have a sinful barrier on your heart and head.

However to persist in a good cause can I just point out that "devastating" - Does not have an "h" in it.

I notice that two more threads have been closed because of an "expletive" = (interjectory word or expression, frequently profane) - possibly???

That means Satan and his servants have paid us a visit. Isn't that a good omen??? In that if he is attacking then we must be being persecuted for the Name?

Philippians 1:28
And in nothing terrified by your adversaries: which is to them an evident token of perdition, but to you of salvation, and that of God.

You appear to be of the Arminian tradition which is still advocating the old Roman Catholic dogma of salvation by works.

As I have already pointed out the sinner dead in his sins cannot come to Christ without divine input, - grace and the Holy Spirit.

Eph 2:5 Even when we were DEAD in sins, hath quickened(MADE ALIVE) us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

Col 2:13 And you, being DEAD in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened(MADE ALIVE) together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

1Cor 2:14 But the natural man receiveth NOT the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

The "natural" man in his unconverted state, cannot come to Christ nor seek HIM, because he is at enmity with God, and spiritually dead because of sin.

Yes! Definitely YES!

DEAD in your sins - you can't even see repentance never mind seek it.

The Biblical Order of Salvation is as follows.
1) election,
2) predestination,
3) gospel call
4) inward call
5) regeneration,
6) conversion (faith & repentance),
7) justification,
8) sanctification,
and 9) glorification.
(Rom 8:29-30)

He was referring to the Westminster Confession chapter on "Adoption"

Sadly Smith does not appear to understand the plain english of the WCF, or the plain teaching on Adoption in Scripture, nor the plain meaning of the word adoption.

Ro 8.15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

Ro 8.23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

Ro 9.4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

Ga 4.5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of SONS

Grace and the Holy Spirit are absolutely essential to remove the sinner from his/her natural estate, and bring them anywhere near a decision to seek repentance and their Saviour.

Sin is the barrier which prevents the mortal from approaching the steps which lead to salvation. The spiritual darkness and subsequent ineffectual state of man, in his natural estate will never be transcended without prior divine action.

You appear to assume otherwise(?)
This is the Arminian heresy rejected in the 5th century and immediately after the Reformation.

Your right Rowan, it is worse than that it is an abomination.

God said...
Lev 18.22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination."

Thus a vile, shameful and detestable act of sin.

Sinners don't go to hell for a disease.

1] "spiritual death" obviously is only a minor ailment in your book Abigail???
Eph 2.1,5 Col 2.13, talks of being "dead" in sin and also uses the word "quicken" correspondingly which means to "make alive" Also Rom 8.11 where the word quicken is the work of the Spirit. 1Cor 15.55 notes the quickening spirit of Jesus. It would seem your definition of spiritually dead, does not qualify the implications of death. Your reason for this can only mean to suggest more power to the sinner, - less power to divine hands.

2] You then list various OT believers as proof of still being able to communicate with God. However nobody denies that saved believers can pray and worship God and receive HIS promise. The point is that NON-believers, unsaved or reprobate CANNOT communicate with God unto salvation.

THAT is the effect of sin in the mortal.

As to NT and OT, Jesus states "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil."

Then the Fall!!

After the fall into a new state of sin, - They were changed. Gen 3.7/8.

What they lost was their ability to serve God in a spiritually "good" way, unto salvation. John 15.5, Rom 5.6, 8.7.
Therefore the "natural" state of man is they lost the "will to spiritual good" Rom 3.10,12.
But still with a free will up to a point. Not in any spiritual way.

Now "dead in sin" the mortal can no longer approach Christ without divine grace. John 6.44,65, 1Cor 2.14, Eph 2.2-5, Titus 3.3-5.

Thus sin, described as Total Depravity, has had a distinct influence upon the human condition, to such an extent, that in the natural state they cannot make any decision towards salvation. This is why God must draw them to Christ, and grace and the Holy Spirit makes the difference between the natural state (in wrath) and the saved state of the Christian, (justified and in a process of sanctification).

Clearly you differ on this account of the influence of sin.

Abigail wrote:
According to the theology that you espouse, we do not need a bible, we do not need teachers and preachers, we do not need a church. God will do it all according to His will, regardless of our actions. Either we are the elect, or we are not and there is nothing we can do about it.
All of the wickedness that goes on in the world--the murder, rape, shootings, killings, wars, incest, child molestation and all other evils are all orchestrated by God and the perpetrators are helpless in their actions.
Abigail

Maybe your upset I quoted that verse from Proverbs, but does that mean you must insult me in this regard to blasphemy???

Come on Abigail stop with the assumptions about Reformed doctrines. Ok if you don't agree with them, present your polemics. But there is no need for implying our doctrines seek to create anarchy from God or His Law and Precepts.