"The sublapsarian preterition, which is that of the Westminster Confession and all the Reformed creeds, supposes the fall in Adam and the existence of sin to be prior, in the order of nature, to both election and preterition. Election and preterition, consequently have reference to the continuance of sin, not to the origin of it. All men fall in Adam, without exception; so that there is no election or non-election to the fall itself, but only to deliverance from it. Both election and preterition suppose the fall, and are inexplicable without it as a presupposition. Men are elected from out of a state of sin; and men are passed by and left in a state of sin. 'They who are elected [and they who are passed by] being fallen in Adam,' etc., Con. iii. 6. Election stops the continuation of sin; preterition permits the continuance of it." (W.G.T.Shedd)
"Let us then ascribe the whole work of grace to the pleasure of God's Will. God did not choose us because we were worthy, but by choosing us He makes us worthy." Rev. Thomas Watson
"Elect according to the fore-knowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit..."(1 Peter 1:2)
Likewise our salvation is 100% of God and from God, yet we are 100% responsible. But our responsibility does not denote ability - and here we part ways with Arminianism who claim that God would not command what we cannot perform. This is what set Pelagius off against Augustine.
To understand this we MUST understand and ackowledge what the Bible teaches about man's natural state. Is he capable, according to the Bible, of "choosing for Christ?" Is he able to love God and try to please Him? The Bible says NO! Dead in sin, heart of stone!
RtG wrote:As Icon O'Clast teaches below, when the Holy Spirit has entered the heart then they are born again.________________________
Michael Hranek wrote:as apparently a lost person under the preaching of the Word of Christ and conviction of the Holy Ghost can in my words desire
If as you say the person is under the conviction of the Holy Spirit, then there is a universe of a difference between them and those who do not have the indwelling of the Spirit. Where God has begun a good work then they are elect and drawn to Jesus, by His grace and none of man's sinful effort is required, to that end. As Icon O'Clast teaches below, when the Holy Spirit has entered the heart then they are born again.________________________
"Icon O'Clast"Is your moniker from the Irish branch of the family O'Clast......
Michael Hranek wrote:Rev 2217 And the Spirit and the bride say, â€śCome!â€ť And let him who hears say, â€śCome!â€ť And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely.I do hope you note that word desires. It is an interesting word as apparently a lost person under the preaching of the Word of Christ and conviction of the Holy Ghost can in my words desire to be forgiven and saved from their sins.
Of course it says whosover will, or whosoever comes or whosoever desires. Your people will be volunteers says the Psalm. But before you will,desire and come your heart has to be changed from stone to flesh first. It's called regeneration, being born again. Before that you don't will or desire to have anything to do with Christ and you don't come.
RtG wrote:Now if Jesus defers to His Father on "will" why do some who call themselves Christian seek to establish the will of the sinner at the most crucial point, - viz coming to christ - as the operation of the will of man?
Apparently the Holy Spirit Himself who btw teaches us (genuine born again believers) and guides us into all the truth doesn't think quite like some 5 Point Calvinists, for example:
Rev 2217 And the Spirit and the bride say, â€śCome!â€ť And let him who hears say, â€śCome!â€ť And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely.
I do hope you note that word desires. It is an interesting word as apparently a lost person under the preaching of the Word of Christ and conviction of the Holy Ghost can in my words desire to be forgiven and saved from their sins.
And of course this will beg the question why would a "Calvinist" pit their opinion of what they think the will of God should be against what it truly is?
Hannes van As wrote:First of all, God in His all-knowing, knew who would accept Him thus their names are written in the Book of Life even before the beginning of the world (foundations of the earth). Itâ€™s a difficult concept to grasp, because our human futile minds will never be able to grasp the fullness and timelessness of God. Remember that God is Outside of Time â€“ He is NOT constrained by it, thus He can see the End and Beginning at Once â€“ and He proclaimed the End from the beginning. Thus He already knows who will choose Him and who will not.
If Romans 8:29 is forced into your theology, then Romans 8:28 is the most hollow statement in Scripture.
Think about it!
Did Jesus believe in a sovereign God?
Jesus teaching is; I came not to do my will but the will of God.We may argue that Jesus 'will' is in complete harmony with His Father. Yet He makes this point, always deferring to God.
EG:: Matt 12.50, 26.39, Luke 22.42,John 4.34, 5.30, 6.38/39.
Jo 5.30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
Now if Jesus defers to His Father on "will" why do some who call themselves Christian seek to establish the will of the sinner at the most crucial point, - viz coming to christ - as the operation of the will of man?
Note the Holy Spirit also defers to God."Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall NOT SPEAK OF HIMSELF; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come." John 16:13.
Youâ€™ve asked some important questions, but Iâ€™m not sure youâ€™ve answered them. Itâ€™s surely true that our presuppositions are critical in our attempt to understand anything. The question is this: what is the source of our presuppositions, especially those which govern our thinking and talk about God and what we can know about Him?
Itâ€™s tempting to speculate about what God â€śmust be like,â€ť and allow our thinking to preempt Scripture, which in fact is the sole source of whatever knowledge we have of God.
The kicker is that Scripture does not tell us everything there is to know about God, only what He wants us to know and what He deems necessary for our salvation. It follows, then, that Scripture may contain â€śgapsâ€ť in our picture of God. Nor can we assume that reason can or should close those gaps. As a result, certain passages in Scripture may ostensibly conflict with others. If we had all the â€śpiecesâ€ť of the puzzle in place, the inconsistencies would disappear. But we donâ€™t. And we must simply rest content with what knowledge it has pleased God to make available to us. We are not at liberty to ignore any part of Scripture. But the need to impose ORDER on Godâ€™s revealed Word is reasonâ€™s demand, not Godâ€™s. God meets our salvific needs, not our expectations.
God cannot be partial.(Deut 1:17, 10:17, 16:19, Job 13:10, 32:21, 2 Chron 19:7, Prov 18:5, 24:23, 28:21, Acts 10:34, Luke 20:21, Rom 2:11, Gal 2:6, Eph 6:9, James 2:3-4, 2:9, Col 3:25, 1 Tim 5:21, 1 Peter 1:17, 2:23.If election is unconditional, then we have contradictions in the Bible and all of the above verses have to be ignored.Contradictions disappear if God is outside of time. Modern physics proves that time itself is a physical property that varies with acceleration and gravity. God is not subject to gravity and to its effects. God does not accelerate. He is omnipresent, outside of time. Space, time, and matter are irrevocably coupled. All three had a beginning.
Neil wrote:Rogerant, I think you conflated the 1677 (aka 1689) London Confession with the 1742 Philly one which is largely similar. It seems that Primitive Baptists prefer the 1644 Confession. Most modern anticreedal Baptists pretend these never existed.Even Anabaptists (whom many Baptists pretend are their ancestors) had the 1632 Dordrecht Confession, which wasn't Calvinistic, of course.
This one is new to me; I thought that the Primitive Baptists despised and denied having a confession of any sort. Ironically, they fail to see that their denial is a confession in itself.
The Churches of the Reformation are drowning in a swamp of their own making. They talk like Arminians and worship like neo-pentecostals. The few that are crying out for the Old Paths are being politically side-lined or hushed up altogether.
I do believe it is almost time for another true Reformation.
Rev. 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
Rev. 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Rev. 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
For those who think they get their name written down in the book of life when the make a decision for Christ, it might sound good, but it ain't bible.
Minnow wrote:rogerantYou're absolutely right! The "paperwork" of all these denominations is orthodox and evangelical. And I'm sure the Elect serve in all sorts of places, not to mention the Invisible Church.But!! - That was really not the point in the post below. Have a nice weekend.
rogerant wrote:And what, this liberalism has not affected mainline Presbyterian, Christian Reformed,...........
But!! - That was really not the point in the post below.
Have a nice weekend.