Do you believe the Bible teaches predestination?
I disagree with the choices offered.
What does the Bible give as its own answer?
Romans 8:29For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.
This is the entire scope of the Christian life....after we are saved....we are to be conformed to the image of Christ. Or as Paul said it another way;
He who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus. Php 1:6
Predestination is concerned with sanctification....not with soeteriology.
Clearly God has superior knowledge and omniscience, compared to the clay vessels HE made.
"[21] Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to MAKE ONE vessel unto honour, and ANOTHER unto dishonour?[22] What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath *FITTED* to destruction:[23] And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which HE had *AFORE* prepared unto glory"
Oh look God's Holy Word teaches that HE is omnipotent.
Good!
Romans 9:30 - Moreover whom He PREDESTINED, these He also called.
Ephesians 1:5 - Having PREDESTINED us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself.
Ephesians 1:11 - Being PREDESTINED according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will.
From the Greek - to predetermine or ordain beforehand someone's destiny.
Couple this with "ELECT", mentioned some 2 dozen times in the Bible and CHOSEN mentioned numerous more times one wonders why anyone would ask the question, "Does the Bible teach predestination?" One might just as well ask, "Does the Bible teach CREATION?"
Now I know that the words ELECT and PREDESTINED and CHOSEN are words that many hate, you must either accept them or try to explain them away.
But by the same token there are many who hate the words CREATE and CREATION just as much; along with MIRACLES and DEITY. They don't explain them away, they just refuse to acknowledge them as the Word of God.
We call these people "LIBERALS". Now that is a word that makes me upset.
But what would you call someone who asks the abovementioned question as if it is up for debate?
A Liberal?
Mike wrote:How then do you perceive that which you state?
#'s 1 & 2 - Are self explanatory. I hope?
# 3 from Phos's " Thus the future has not been written in detail."
A] In God's mind infinite and beyond our capacity to comprehend all, "detail" can just as easily embrace Christ's incarnate journey and crucifiction and reason for, - as to any future event. With an attribute whereby a day is like a thousand years then I believe that "detail" is but a minor perception.
B] If God does not perceive detail in creation, (eg: consider the detail in the living body), then this proclaims a deficit in omnipotence/omniscience/sovereign/almighty/foreknowledge attributes.
C] In sending the Holy Spirit into the life of the sinner, God guarantees that all "detail" is perceived and provided for.(Providence)
Col 1:16 "For by him were *ALL* things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist"
Minnow wrote:[1] As stated = Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, [2] But God only needs to do this once, which as above verses state HE has decreed once for all time.[3] In the infinite mind of God, - It has!! Our finite and sin polluted minds cannot, nor will not, perceive thus until resurrection.
Phos wrote:[1] The Christian is foreknown and predestined [2] God decrees the future, and then brings to pass that which he has decreed. [3]Thus, the future has not been written in detail;
[2] God decrees the future, and then brings to pass that which he has decreed.
[3]Thus, the future has not been written in detail;
[2] But God only needs to do this once, which as above verses state HE has decreed once for all time.
[3] In the infinite mind of God, - It has!! Our finite and sin polluted minds cannot, nor will not, perceive thus until resurrection.
Phos wrote:The Christian is foreknown and predestined only in the sense that he shares the destiny of Christ Jesus, it being Christ who is foreknown and predestined in the absolute sense. This is much like being destined to travel to New York, by virtue of having boarded an airplane or train which is bound for New York.God does not look into the future to see that which the future holds; rather, God decrees the future, and then brings to pass that which he has decreed. Thus, the future has not been written in detail; man is not acting out a script.
Absolutely! For both the elect and the reprobates.
God does not look into the future to see that which the future holds; rather, God decrees the future, and then brings to pass that which he has decreed.
Thus, the future has not been written in detail; man is not acting out a script.
Mike wrote:As far as the potter/clay relationship goes, comparing Scripture with Scripture, consider Jeremiah 18:1-10 for insight into this metaphor later used by Paul in Romans. Notice the clay is not passive. The clay (Israel) is/will be formed(yes, by the Potter) according to Israel's response to God.
Deu 30:6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart (regeneration), and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.
Act 15:8-9 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as [he did] unto us; And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
For the house of Israel their salvation began with Paul's calling on Damascus Road and salvation upon receiving the Holy Spirit.
1Ti 1:16-17 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting. Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, [be] honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.
Paul gave all glory to God for His mercy. He turned because God turned him granting repentance.
"Mike wrote:Vessels of wrath are those fitted to destruction by their own unbelief and rebellion. By sin, not decree.
"Mike, since when you became the potter? Since when you became the creator? Are you sovereign over the God of Heaven? Are you sovereign over the Creator of the Universe? Interestingly awaiting your answer. Think over your response above in light of Romans 9:21-22."
First, in what way does my comment make me the Potter? The Creator? Sovereign?
You have many questions. But I have no free will, so I cannot choose to answer. Just kidding, poking at another calv balloon. No need to change threads.
As far as the potter/clay relationship goes, comparing Scripture with Scripture, consider Jeremiah 18:1-10 for insight into this metaphor later used by Paul in Romans. Notice the clay is not passive. The clay (Israel) is/will be formed(yes, by the Potter) according to Israel's response to God. Notice in v4 the vessel of dishonor(marred) is remade into a vessel of honor(as seemed good to the potter..) Nothing here about predestined dishonor, or once marred, always marred. Reread v8 and v10. There is a distinct if, then, relationship. Paul was quite familiar with the metaphor when he used it.
Since God has cast him out of paradise, and bound him in chains of darkness, he will make use of all his skill, power and experience, to draw men into the same misery with himself; and if he cannot prevent their entering at last into paradise above, he will labor might and main to make their life a wilderness here below; and to this purpose he will busy their thoughts and hearts about the decrees of God, and about their particular elections; as, whether God has decreed them to eternal happiness, or chosen them to everlasting blessedness, etc., that so by this means he may keep them from that desirable assurance that may yield believers two heavens, a heaven of joy and comfort here, and a heaven of felicity and glory hereafter." (Thomas Brooks)
Did Brooks write this in 1654, about SermonAudio and these debates?
debate threads get ugly as we have seen here and in other threads on this site.
discussion threads are a sharing of views and opinions not a strong arm event such as this.
When I first came on sermon audio I was attacked on all sides.....So I took the opinion that was just how it was and is on this site. So I dug in and threw a few punches myself in self defense and then went on the attack. I found myself mad and consumed with the threads and mad at people I have never even met.
Formed opinions and judgement with what I believed to be just cause.
Then sermon audio put a halt on all the debate and pointed out this shouldn't get so pointed and argumentative due to the witness of this site. It mellowed out quite a bit and I re-examined my former opinion that maybe this site isn't for bashing people over the head with doctrine.
So I backed off and tried to take a roll of genuine concern and sharing of truth. But I have found, now I am being chastised and taunted by a contentious individual who sees no problem with brow-beating others into submission. All while sermon audio sits idly by allowing this person to do it over and over. I am amazed.
If the psychic could predict all the football games including the score, why not just not play the games and save the time and trouble?"
You seem to forget that God IS the future! He knows and sees today, tomorrow, and yesterday as if it were one. The things that happen, happen, because He has deemed it to happen. There is not a sparrow that falls from a nest that He does not know of. If He were not holding the stars, moon and sun in the sky, we would all disintegrate.
Are you comparing The Almighty Jehovah to a Psychic? Remember there would be no psychic if God did not allow the 'false' to dwell with the true.
