John UK wrote:Too true, bro! And ....
BUT on the other hand
The Bible Facts wrote:This is ....
I believe you have a serious missunderstanding here. One that has apparently led you to justifying making blatant false accusation.
Reformed/Calvinists do in fact observe through a glass darkly (as all of us do until we might stand in the fulness of the Presence of Christ) important and significant truths in Scripture.
But like the Pharisees before you, "It is your abuse of these truths that I object to". For example the Sabbath was very much in Scripture. Jesus kept the Sabbath but not at all in the way the Pharisees approved of, did He!
And you might remember The Savior had serious conflict with these experts in Religion because when everything was said and done with all their Religious knowledge they really didn't know God, let alone show the Love and Grace of God to others, or let's say...to sinners did they.
And thank you so much for reminding me how much I need to follow Christ and not the prostyles of Calvin.
Michael Hranek wrote:Whereas an imbalance on His Sovereignity (the total inability of man and the irresistable grace of God taken to the extreme) can give a very distorted dishonoring protrayal of God
Michael denies that the sinner is dead in sin as the Bible teaches.
"And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins" Eph 2:1
"Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)" Eph 2:5
"And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;" Col 2:13
Michael also denies that God's grace is irresistible.Yet Jesus Himself declares.
"All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." John 6:37 AND"And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day." John 6:39 AND"No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day." John 6:44 and 65.
Total Depravity and Irresistible Grace are Bible Facts.
Michael Hranek wrote:And IMHO why would we ever expect sinners to have genuine sorrow and repentance and real God given faith to come to Christ to be saved...if they are presented with a warped portrayal of God?
For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? Romans 10:13-14 KJV
There is still a harvest, and still there are sheaves to be brought in.
Wayne M. wrote:Michael,The answer to this question as to why men are seemly free to choose and yet God has predetermined events beforehand is another of the mysteries it appears is not given to us to fully understand.
Perhaps you might see openly admitting we do not have God all figured out allows us to preach the Truth of God such as:"He is good and ready to forgive and abounds in mercy to all who call upon Him" (IMHO this honors His character)
Whereas an imbalance on His Sovereignity (the total inability of man and the irresistable grace of God taken to the extreme) can give a very distorted dishonoring protrayal of God than how He truly and wonderfully is.
And IMHO why would we ever expect sinners to have genuine sorrow and repentance and real God given faith to come to Christ to be saved...if they are presented with a warped portrayal of God?
I know now that as a Catholic boy I was presented a very distorted twisted even blasphemous image of God and of Christ (along with the wicked idol of the RCC Virgin) Certainly not the Truth that leads men to salvation, that leads men to love the Savior.
Michael Hranek wrote:Wayne M Wow! How far do you want to go with this? Would you deride sinners as being fully responsible and accountable for all their sins when you seem to be implying God is so directly in control of everything,
Would you concede that there is much teaching in Scripture that shows God is sovereign in the affairs of men and predetermines what comes to pass?
"For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done." Acts 4:27,28
Would you agree that people choose to do evil while at the same time God has predetermined what will come to pass? Obviously this is something we cannot comprehend. We accept other doctrines which we cannot fully understand; why not this one?
Michael Hranek wrote:John UKI put it with a different emphasis...The only hope for sinners is The Cross, in Jesus Christ who died for us there! And Oh! How The Cross speaks of the charater and nature of God...completely and absolutely Holy and purest Love and Truth itself.
The answer you give to this question will determine much.
John UK wrote:And so the only hope for such is that God has chosen them unto salvation, and thus brings them to new birth simply from his good purpose, independent of an infant's understanding.
The only hope for sinners is The Cross, in Jesus Christ who died for us there!
And Oh! How The Cross speaks of the charater and nature of God...completely and absolutely Holy and purest Love and Truth itself.
Grouptwo wrote:Michael HranekHow come you disagree with Bible men Spurgeon and Paul Washer
How come you disagree with Bible men Spurgeon and Paul Washer
What makes you think you agree with Spurgeon or Washer....but even more importantly with what God Himself says to us about Himself and what He requires of us in the Bible?
From what I gather Spurgeon who called himself a Calvinist didn't get along greatly with THE Calvinists of his day (and many calling themselves Calvinists today are quite a bit different than him as well)...
...and Washer in my words testifies of being blessed by Leonard Ravenhill more than a bunch of dead (cold) Calvinists, oops and Washer also speaks well of and how essential(rather than maligns) the ministry of the Holy Spirit in the lives of individual believers.
I have observed this before that some seem far more interested that people be conformed to Calvinism (or Reformed Theology) than they are of people coming to know Christ in Salvation in the New Birth...and I might add in being conformed to the image of the Son of God, of loving Him and following Him and serving Him and proclaiming Him that others might believe in Him.
And isn't this along the lines of what you posted to me? It sure seems to be.
Michael Hranek wrote:The other group faithfully presented God according to who (how) God truly is and made disciples...
If you heard Spurgeon or the contemporary, Peter Masters, I don't think you'd have a problem with the way they present the Lord.
I have found these texts informative:
Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men.... 2 Corinthians 5:11a KJV
For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again. 2 Corinthians 5:14-15 KJV
Of course, if Christ died for all, then obviously all were 'dead in trespasses and sins', weren't they? This must include infants, or you have to say that Christ did not die for all. And if an infant is 'dead in sins' then they must be born again, to be able to go to heaven.
And so the only hope for such is that God has chosen them unto salvation, and thus brings them to new birth simply from his good purpose, independent of an infant's understanding.
You seem to have an aversion to reading anything Reformed and eschew commentaries, yet what is any man on sermon audio posting 'comments'- his own interpreter? Opps, silly me! Michael relies on the Spirit of Truth to guide him in all things, so the Reformed faith is heresy and belongs to your first group? Or you have not understood the Doctrines of Grace by the conviction of the HS? How come you disagree with Bible men Spurgeon and Paul Washer, or are you 'more spiritual'?
"Calvinism robs the individual of responsibility for his/her own conduct, making a person into a puppet on a string or a robot programmed from birth to death with no will of his/her own."
Here, sadly, we encounter blatant misrepresentation of the Calvinistic position. And it is this very shallow, very inaccurate representation of the Reformed doctrines of grace that call forth this response. Nothing is accomplished when one misrepresents the opposition. "Straw man" argumentation only confuses, it does not help.
[URL=http://vintage.aomin.org/DoctrinesLead.html]]]Heard it all before[/URL]
Michael why not examine the above article link...your 'spiritual machine' is gross misrepresentaion
John UK wrote:Good morning Brother MichaelI see you are embarking on an exciting journey in your spiritual life; the understanding and reconciling of seeming paradoxes in God's word.The third is your current one, the doctrine of mans' complete responsibility for his own actions while also holding God's complete sovereignty. I wish you well as you grapple with this.
The third is your current one, the doctrine of mans' complete responsibility for his own actions while also holding God's complete sovereignty. I wish you well as you grapple with this.
Actually I am not grappling so much with election, predestination and the responsibility of man but more along the lines of the true character and nature of God
There were two groups of people who both had the Scriptures, the 39 Books of the Old Testament.
One group greatly missrepresented God and His commandments, covenant, promises according to the commandments and traditions of men (we might say according to human scholarship) and made proselytes. BTW they could still identify the place of Messiah's birth.
The other group faithfully presented God according to who (how) God truly is and made disciples...brought people to know of and to trust in God as He really is, to repent of their sin, to learn of and from Him personally love Him, follow Him and serve Him.
The first group didn't really know God and hated the second who did.
I see you are embarking on an exciting journey in your spiritual life; the understanding and reconciling of seeming paradoxes in God's word.
The first one you have already got so far, and found you could go no further, namely, the doctrine of the Trinity, where three Persons are one God.
The second is the doctrine of the Person of Christ, who is both fully God and fully Man at one and the same time. Again, you can only go so far, and say that you believe it, even though not fully understanding.
I personally believe all the above doctrines, without being able to articulate them or fully understand them. The third I barely understand at all, yet believe it with all my heart.
If it were not so, my salvation would depend on "my performance in relation to God's redeeming actions" and I would have no peace 24/7. I think you will find this is more akin to Catholicism (with its seven sacraments), than Reformed Christianity, which biblically believes that God has Done It All!
p.s. This includes Baptist 1689 confessional believers.
Wayne M. wrote:Does God permit the universe to run itself as if it is an out of control aircraft or is God in control with an eternal purpose?
Wayne, you seem to be dodging just how we should present the character of God. When Jehovah hid Moses in the cleft of the rock and passed by him what did He say when He proclaimed His Name (or if you are willing His nature, His being) to Him?
Does not Jehovah begin with...Compassionate? Merciful kjv
IMHO Jesus expresses the character of God quite differently from how the religious traditions of men present the character of God, and I believe it is far safer to listen to what Jesus says than the opinions of men. How about you?
Michael Hranek wrote:Or just a "robotic" elect?
Does God permit the universe to run itself as if it is an out of control aircraft or is God in control with an eternal purpose?
"According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord." Eph. 3:11
"Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father. But the very hairs of your head are numbered." Matt.10:29,30
Are the free acts of men both free and predestined? "Woe unto the world because offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!" Matt.18:7
Are the evil (and good) actions of men predetermined and at the same time freely performed?
Do christians repent, believe, and seek to do God's will because they want to? Is this because God works in them by the Holy Spirit.
"For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure." Phil. 2:13
Wayne M. wrote:One Reformed writer says Scripture tells us divine election is not conditioned upon something in the creature, but rather upon something in God. It is the good pleasure, the delight of God, which is the basis of election. Beyond that, who are we to question what or why God does certain things?The fact is all are fallen and deserving of the wrath of God. The fact He saves even some is due to the mercy and gracious character of God."Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth." Romans 9:18Another Reformed writer says "He will display the perfection of his holiness by wrath against sin in the destruction of the wicked, and he will display the perfection of his mercy and love in saving the elect." Is there anyone who would question the wisdom of God in doing this?
"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life."
Did Jesus know what He was talking about? Did He really mean the whole world? In what He says is there really a Promise that sinners can believe, and call upon His Name to be saved? Or just a "robotic" elect?
Mike wrote:Pardon the interruption, John. But why then do we decry abortion at all? God was going to destroy most of them anyway. Isn't destruction their lot? As for the aborted elect, it must be, according to some, they were predestined to this fate. How do they live with such an imagined God?
But as for destruction being "their lot", as if "they" are somehow separated from the rest of the world and are predestinated unto destruction, as if God takes delight in showing men his greater power over them and destroys them to prove that, no, I don't believe that is the way of it. I personally see all men as guilty and therefore destined for destruction which is our just desert. God could justly leave it there and destroy all men, and there would be no argument.
It is only because God has chosen to be merciful to some, for reasons unknown to me, that there is any debate at all. It happened at the flood, when God showed Noah and his family grace and destroyed the rest of the world.
Michael Hranek wrote:Wayne M Are you sure about this?Am I misstaken or are you "Reformed"?And do not the "Reformed" essentially teach that God is completely and absolutely sovereign in and over all things arbitarily predestines and elects certain ones to salvation because all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and all the rest He would essentially arbitarily predestinate to the eternal hell.
The fact is all are fallen and deserving of the wrath of God. The fact He saves even some is due to the mercy and gracious character of God.
"Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth." Romans 9:18
Another Reformed writer says "He will display the perfection of his holiness by wrath against sin in the destruction of the wicked, and he will display the perfection of his mercy and love in saving the elect." Is there anyone who would question the wisdom of God in doing this?
formikal wrote:You are still entrenched in the Roman Catholic teaching of your youth Michael. You appear to consider that God cannot save you without your help.
Ah you do know the Reformed put great weight upon the teachings of Augustine the same Augustine the RCC claims as ...a doctor of their false religion if I am remembering correctly. While basically us simple mined Baptist type believers look to the Bible.
I sure hope you aren't accusing the RCC of holding to Biblical Truth are you.
John UK wrote:--- Possible, but so unlikely.But if true, it makes abortionists the direct cause of salvation for many babes.
Michael Hranek wrote:do not the "Reformed" essentially teach that God is completely and absolutely sovereign in and over all things arbitarily predestines and elects certain ones to salvation because all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and all the rest He would essentially arbitarily predestinate to the eternal hell