I am able to go to the morning service on public transport. So to have evening and mid-week services...I go to Hertiage Baptist Church (BBF) under Pastor Mark Mullins.
Pray for Jordan Valley Baptist that we can find property we can afford so we can build a building we can meet at.
[Strawman] Definition:
The author attacks an argument which is different from, and usually weaker than, the opposition's best argument.
Proof:
Show that the opposition's argument has been misrepresented by showing that the opposition has a stronger argument. Describe the stronger argument.
Straw man - Person who is a sham or a sham arguement.
Ad Hominem - to the man.ie: being personal, rather than to his arguement. On here it usually means we have attacked him not his point of arguement.
Cheers.
BTW can someone explain simply the expression 'straw man' - I don't think it is used in this country. I know Yamil uses it quite a bit (generally when his back is to the wall!) but it is now being used quite commonly on SA. Also the 'ad homo...' whatever it is - what does that mean? Is it Latin? Just curious. Maybe I should throw in some of our weird Oz expressions from time to time!
I think this is a staw man argument, or at least semantics.
"The idea of a family / household is quite applicable to the assembly I think.". Yes, I wholeheartedly agree with that and do not think I have intimated anything to the contrary. If I have inadvertantly implied that please show me where and I will clarify my intent.
As for 'name-tags' I really don't understand where you are coming from. Do you have the same problem with biblical words like apostle, prophet or Christ? There is no conflict between the 'official' (if you like) and the 'functional' in either a biblically ordered home or church. Rather I would expect to see a beautiful harmony - admittedly in some specific instances one might be disappointed but that does not undermine the Bible's teaching.
PS: No, I'm not KJVO or even KJVmainly. I use the KJV for posting because it is the one I have the full electronic text for.
A major problem here is KJV terminology which is very much inclined towards officialdom, most likely a reflection of the King himself. In the KJV one finds leaders 'ruling' over you (actually they watch over you) and various 'offices' and words like 'ordained' inserted where there is no word in the original text. If you are strictly KJVO I won't bother trying to reason this through of course!
Thank you for the clarification.
"The church or assembly is to function as a family; everyone in a family knows their place and is expected to do thier part (be qualified in that sense) but they don't each go about claiming 'official' positions or titles, the idea is silly."
Exodus 20:6Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.
Would you draw an artificial distinction here between a parent's 'official' capacity (your terminology not mine) or their family function here? The command is that we honour our parents because they are our parents, not because they are parents who satisfy some test for being good or dynamically functioning in a work of parental supererogation. Likewise there is nothing wrong with the 'office' of eldership.
It is quite inappropriate to bring in perjorative suggestions of officialdom against the biblical office. By all means criticise specific abuses of office, but I exhort you to think carefully before condemning offices established in the New Testament.
All our male members participate in elder selection. It was decided that coworkers, family, neighbors, leaders from prev. churches would be interviewed.
This was where my trouble arose!
But you are quite right that just any older person would not automatically be regarded as an elder, my original post was poorly worded in this way. The term implies (spiritual) maturity as well as chronological age. No place for 21 year old Mormon Elders in scripture.....
How about; Lord, make a soul winner out of me?
"There is no suggestion in scripture of anyone claiming to be 'the pastor' and exercising authority over and above the elders".
I agree. Elder is an office and is identical in the scriptures with the offices of pastor, overseer and bishop.
If "elder" in the New Testament "is simply an older person, not an official position"
then in"Titus ch 1- when outlining leadership qualifications, Paul calls an elder (presbuteros v5) a bishop (episkopos v7)."
Why would there need to be any specific "leadership qualifications" if you simply need to be old or mature?
Timothy was an overseer but not an elder as he was younger in age. Peter and John refer to themselves as elders and they were also overseers.
There is no suggestion in scripture of anyone claiming to be 'the pastor' and exercising authority over and above the elders; this idea is from the RCC. Some examples:
Acts ch 20 - here Paul asks the Ephesian elders (presbuteros v17) to come and see him, and when they arrive he addresses them using the word overseers (episkopos v28).
Titus ch 1- when outlining leadership qualifications, Paul calls an elder (presbuteros v5) a bishop (episkopos v7).
I Peter ch 5 - here Peter exhorts the elders (presbuteros vl) to do the work of overseeing (episkopos v2).
No, an elder is not simply someone who is old or has been a so-called "Christian" for a long time. There are a lot of old fools and heretics about (look at the geriatric heretics in the Vatican for example).
Elder is an office and is identical in the scriptures with the offices of pastor, overseer and bishop.
It's not about being "officials" and "above the rest". Christ calls his disciples to serve and to prefer each other above themselves, and especially this is true of elders.
Oh dear.... how ever did we get to the point of having to have candidates, nominations and votes I wonder. The Holy Spirit should chose, not man - he gives gifts and chooses as HE wills, it is not our choice or based on who has the best credentials or who can garner the greatest support!
An 'elder' is simply an older person, not an official position. I would think this would normally be chronologically older but could simply apply to being 'older in the faith' if others in the gathering were new believers for example.
If everyone took part equally the Holy Spirit would then be free to use each person as he wills and the combination would prove a blessing to all, rather than some trying to be officials over and above the rest. All ye are brethren....
Don't be discouraged in your "deadlock". Press on brother and in God's time He may be pleased to raise additional pastors up, which may one day in due season be yourself.
The church that I attend also does not have a plurality of elders, and I know that it is one of the most earnest prayers of my pastor that he have a fellow-labourer alongside him.
Our church received godly counsel from other pastors and one of the exhortations they made to us was to recognise that a biblical plurality of elders was for the "well-being" of the church, but was not necessary for the biblical "being" of the church. We were thus exhorted to press on in Christ's service knowing that He is sovereign over all things and calls us to follow Him dutifully.
You seem to have started something here!I've just been reading your post ref: putting an AD in the local paper. My local Editor is a Roman Catholic? How do you think I should word the AD for him?"Local Calvinst Reformed Protestant Christian [non-Liberal] [non-Heretic] seeks real Christians to form the True Church in our area."
What do you think?
