Weeks after posting a message on social media revealing that her family was working through an âunexpected crisis,â Christian author Jen Hatmaker, a mother of five, has filed for divorce from her husband, Brandon.
Hatmaker, who made headlines in 2016 for affirming same-sex marriage, wrote after nearly three weeks of social media silence at the time: âIâve been quiet. In short, we are deeply hurting in our little life. As Iâve written, there is a difference between secrecy marked by shame, and privacy marked by discretion, and we are in the second category.â
Hatmaker said her âgreatest regretâ was speaking against homosexuality....
JohnâŠ it is interesting to me how many times I can say the same thing in slightly different ways because the point is missedâŠ Iâm starting to believe that to be intentional and not incidental. To be clear: there is no scriptural mandate for which specific sins, beyond rejecting of the Holy Spirit, would classify a person as lost or saved. Saved people sinâŠ As we noticed by the man in a sexual relationship with his stepmom. Lost people act spiritualâŠ As evidenced by the Pharisee in Luke 18. Our job is to provide grace always and (for the church body,) chastisement when needed. Not to sit around just blatantly bad mouthing people and questioning salvation. As I have stated, neither of us know whether she is savedâŠ if she claims so, what she needs is Church discipline. Then let the spirit work on her. Call sitting on here lambasting everyone who does something wrong as âon their way to hellâ is making Christians look ridiculous because we are celebrating it
BTW Steven, I do not want you to imagine that I classify anyone as 'beyond the pale'. Obviously some are, because God has 'given them over'; they loved not the truth, so God prevented them from ever 'hearing' the truth. Those not elect are not so much 'beyond the pale' as non starters. God chooses not to extend his mercy to them, so they perish in the sins which they love, and deservedly so.
But no-one really knows if a sinner will ever repent. While there is life there is hope.
Luke 13:4-5 KJV (4)Â Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem? (5)Â I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
With regard to Mrs Hatmaker, I would be thrilled if the Spirit of God convicted her of her sins and brought her to repentance through the new birth. So it is mere speculation on my part that she is reprobate. I think it is highly likely, but time always tells. She will either get worse and worse, in which case she will perish; or the Lord God will have mercy upon her and bring her to the cross, and bring her to his word, which so clearly points out her grievous sins.
And if I was in her case, I would hope Christians would point these things out to me.
Stevenr wrote: John, letâs be honest. we have no evidence that anyone on this forum is saved outside the fact that they can talk the talk.
What an odd life you must live, Steven. Every day you meet people, and you do not know whether or not they are Christians. Man, it must be worse in America than I supposed, when the Christians do not stand out, living righteously, and the sinners stand out, living ungodly lives. It's all become a blur. The tares are in the church and no-one knows who they are. They have learnt a few evangelical phrases, and they are good for baptism and can become Sunday School teachers, deacons, pastors. Yes, the devil sure has won victories, and it is because of backsliding. God's people no longer care what happens. They have become hedonists. They think being religious is all that is necessary for heaven.
But Mrs Hatmaker, now surely the evidence points to her being unregenerate? We know full well she is now supporting the LGBT cause and is filing for divorce. What would you say if the reason for her divorce is so that she can 'marry' another woman? Hmmmm?
So, John 4âwhat was that manâs fruit prior? We donât know. What was this womanâs fruit prior to this? (Just because she is propoed up by an ungodly society doesnât mean that is her only âfruit.â) We donât know. My ENTIRE point. And thank you for the last sentence.
I'm positive the man caught in a relationship was saved because the Bible says so. It isn't a supposition! The Bible also says we can know who is saved by their fruit. According to Jen's constant disobedience of God's Word, she is not saved. A bad tree bears bad fruit. However, it really doesn't matter according to church discipline and it doesn't mean she should be given up on.
John, letâs be honest. we have no evidence that anyone on this forum is saved outside the fact that they can talk the talk. So, I never claimed to have evidence of either destination. What I said is that we are called to Grace and God is the judge of who has Christ, and if she IS a child God will deal with her in this life or the next. If notâsame thing. But to cast judgement of her position is not ours to do.
You said, "And there you go, yet again making a judgement that essentially says that the Holy Spirit is powerless to convict and reclaim someone. Do you not believe that God loves His children, and chastens them? Do you not believe that God wants a chastened child to return to Him? Where is your faith John? Or are you too interesting in celebrating the Devilâs victories?"
And so I asked, "Now then Stevenr, what you need to do, is tell me upon what evidence you are basing your belief that Mrs Hatmaker is one of God's elect?"
And you replied, "..... I believe that is above our paygrade."
So you have no evidence whatever that Mrs Hatmaker is a child of God, yet you imply that God loves her and will chasten her and desires her return to him? This is a poor do, Steven. You can't make judgments like that without evidence.
You say I am wrong to believe she will end up in a lake of fire because of the evidence in front of me, yet you yourself believe she will be in heaven eventually, without any evidence whatever.
Now I must say that I believe this convo will turn out profitable to both of us, and I believe this because the Bible says so. Therefore do not permit the devil another victory, but receive grace upon grace.
Stevenr wrote: And there you go, yet again making a judgement that essentially says that the Holy Spirit is powerless to convict and reclaim someone. Do you not believe that God loves His children, and chastens them? Do you not believe that God wants a chastened child to return to Him? Where is your faith John? Or are you too interesting in celebrating the Devilâs victories?
Stevenr, if Mrs Hatmaker (soon to lose the Hatmaker part by divorce) is a child of God, then God her Father will reclaim her shortly, or even lengthily, because she is one of God's elect for whom Christ died specifically, and God has promised to keep all of his elect and beloved children. This is what grace is all about, the salvation of God's elect, his sheep, and the justice towards the non elect, the goats. God will be glorified in both the elect and the non elect. It's a fact.
Now then Stevenr, what you need to do, is tell me upon what evidence you are basing your belief that Mrs Hatmaker is one of God's elect?
After all, the only evidence I have seen thus far, would make it clear that she is a rebel against God, unregenerate, a promoter of LGBT vileness. So to my mind she is reprobate.
And there you go, yet again making a judgement that essentially says that the Holy Spirit is powerless to convict and reclaim someone. Do you not believe that God loves His children, and chastens them? Do you not believe that God wants a chastened child to return to Him? Where is your faith John? Or are you too interesting in celebrating the Devilâs victories?
Dr. Tim wrote: That she isnât right with God and is a candidate for church discipline, however, is beyond question. She should be dealt with scripturally, like any other fallen church member.
Stevenr wrote: Exactly Tim
Not going to happen. She doesn't accept the scriptural position on homosexuality nor divorce, nor adultery, so to imagine she will accept church discipline is a non starter. Besides which, she's a famous author and preacheress, don't you know.
Well, Stevenr, some folks say that Matthew is really a continuation of the Old Testament way of doing things. Thatâs mighty handy for them if they want to claim that tithing is foreign to the New Testament. Whether this lady is saved or not is, as a famous (or infamous) fella said âAbove my paygrade.â That she isnât right with God and is a candidate for church discipline, however, is beyond question. She should be dealt with scripturally, like any other fallen church member. Nada mas y nada menos.
John 4 Again, supposition based on no stated Biblical fact. We donât know if the manâs testimony was good or bad before his relationship with his stepmother. That is the point. Itâs not for us to stand around making unilateral statements over whether this woman is lost or saved. What there is however is a Biblical process that Christ gave us in Matthew 18 to deal with someone who has fallen, which is the process Paul suggested regarding the man. Someone in Christian leadership needs to approach her and tell her where she is wrong. If she doesnât listen, take a few witnesses, and then if it doesnât change, bring her before the Church and then announce she is under Church discipline.
B. McCausland wrote: Sure, barren Christianity abounds, result of false gospel pulpit 'talks' and esay belivism. How true Adam Clarke had it, even 2 centuries ago. Surely I Corinthians 5 deals with the necessity of church discipline, "Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us: Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth. "
Thank you sister for your comments. Most welcome. It is always good to hear from you, Sister B. ____________
It is true that I do not know for whom Jesus died, but I do know that few there be that find their way to the portal and enter through that door into the kingdom of God.
All I can go on is the evidence placed before me. Is this lady a member of a church? She ought to be shunned, not accepted. Thrown out of membership, not received with open arms. In the OT, purity within the camp was taken seriously. Today, it seems churches are so lax, that they are filling up with tares. Would anyone care to disagree? Some churches are only tares, not one believer. It's a fact.
Another thing to consider is Jen Hatmaker has begun to bare fruit and none of it good. Preaching the word is overstepping her bounds, accepting the sin of homosexuality, and now divorce for unbiblical causes.
Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Therefore by their fruits you will know them. Matthew 7:17â-âŹ20
I get what you are saying about the man who married his stepmother, but it was of a different situation. He may have bore good fruit until then and when confronted with his sin, had trouble breaking away from it because he was already entrapped. He may have still held to the tenets of the faith otherwise and just needed harsh correction for this one thing. I'm not saying I am exactly right, but there are those who leave or are expelled from the church who were never part of the body and then there are those who are kicked out for disciplinary reasons who are still saved. I lean toward her not ever being saved because of her fruit.