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Breaking News All | Religion | Society | Tech | Choice | SA Newsroom
FRONT PAGE  |  8/11/2020
WEDNESDAY, JUL 1, 2020  |  20 comments  |  1 commentary
Supreme Court strikes down state ban on public aid to religious schools
The U.S. Supreme Court has ruled that religious schools can qualify for a state tax credit program even when the state constitution explicitly bans public aid to religious entities.

In a decision released Tuesday morning, the high court ruled 5-4 in Espinoza v. Montana Department of Revenue that parents could take advantage of a public scholarship program to send their children to religious schools.


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· Page 1 ·  Found: 20 user comment(s)
News Item7/2/2020 10:10 PM
CV  Find all comments by CV
John UK wrote:
getting educated at home may not cut the cloth.
There is no question of competency where it's allowed to flourish. American ingenuity and entrepreneurialism takes care of that.
And with the advent of internet, the old system will change anyways!

God holds the father responsible as the head of the house. We don't make a believer, we are called to be obedient to our responsibilities. When a child grows up, goes to uni etc, God only holds us to our obedience, not to its results.
States schools can work if it does not usurp parental authority. But the system by its very nature makes State the authority.

You cannot deny the spiritual element in this.

20

News Item7/2/2020 8:36 PM
The Quiet Christian  Find all comments by The Quiet Christian
I'm not sure I did anything but reframe your question differently, Brother John.

The concept of education is an interesting one. If the Lord through Jesus Christ created all things, then study of those things should reveal the Lord's "fingerprints" and His glory. Whether or not those observations and knowledge are willingly surpressed is another matter. Not sure how to state a cogent point in summary at this point, but perhaps you can see where I'm going.

19

News Item7/2/2020 5:16 PM
John UK  Find all comments by John UK
The Quiet Christian wrote:
Brother John, you have raised a valid question about the Biblical authority surrounding government operation, although the point you raise is more specifically to education.
I'm not sure you will find those principles in total in your Bible. I don't see many of them in mine. Perhaps that's because the Bible is a book of 2 Tim 3:16 uses for believers in Christ/redeemed by Christ and churches (groups of believers/redeemed). Certain principles do obviously apply and the responsibility to educate is given to fathers in both the OT & NT.
Parents have options today though to delegate that authority to a school or do it themselves. At the loosest interpretation, dad is still responsible.
The problem comes when the state, via the school, attempts or succeeds in usurping parental authority & responsibility.
Quiet Brother, thanks for your post, and seeking to improve my knowledge on the subject. Thank you.

I wonder if it is a Catch-22 situation? If a young man wishes (being a capitalist) to secure a great job, professional, well paid, he will need to get to a level of education acceptable to the profession, and getting educated at home may not cut the cloth.

18

News Item7/2/2020 4:45 PM
The Quiet Christian  Find all comments by The Quiet Christian
...con't...

Then there is another problem in content taught. We all have original sin & typically don't need any help to sin, but much of what we complain about is what is taught which is against Biblical teaching.

Difficult topic to explain or explain away. Thanks for raising it!

17

News Item7/2/2020 4:43 PM
The Quiet Christian  Find all comments by The Quiet Christian
Brother John, you have raised a valid question about the Biblical authority surrounding government operation, although the point you raise is more specifically to education.

I'm not sure you will find those principles in total in your Bible. I don't see many of them in mine. Perhaps that's because the Bible is a book of 2 Tim 3:16 uses for believers in Christ/redeemed by Christ and churches (groups of believers/redeemed). Certain principles do obviously apply and the responsibility to educate is given to fathers in both the OT & NT.

Parents have options today though to delegate that authority to a school or do it themselves. At the loosest interpretation, dad is still responsible.

The problem comes when the state, via the school, attempts or succeeds in usurping parental authority & responsibility.

16

News Item7/2/2020 9:47 AM
John UK  Find all comments by John UK
Mike wrote:
In my State, NY establishes what are called standards to which all school districts must adhere. A district is allowed to decide their curriculum that would meet the standards. It's kind of like a parent telling a child he must wear shoes and socks, but allowing the child to decide what color socks to wear. IMO, the farther away control over education goes, the more unacceptable and inferior much of the education becomes. My daughter is a teacher in another State. She recently told me she is not allowed to fail students. One result? The students know this. There are some with character who will continue to work hard, and those who are less willing, get even lazier. They don't worry about failing, because they can't.
Biblical principle issue- no warrant for government schools. Parental authority to raise, educate children
Thanks Mike, got it.

I like your argument for no state schools: no biblical warrant. That would extend also to universities and colleges.

15

News Item7/2/2020 8:48 AM
Mike | New York  Find all comments by Mike
John UK wrote:
Mike, are you saying that there has been a recent change in the system? That the curriculum in schools is now set by the state, whereas it was once set independently? That appears to be what you're saying.
As for biblical practice, I honestly do not know what the Bible teaches about it. Is there some teaching on schools? I mean schools which cater for every child, not just the people of God.
In my State, NY establishes what are called standards to which all school districts must adhere. A district is allowed to decide their curriculum that would meet the standards. It's kind of like a parent telling a child he must wear shoes and socks, but allowing the child to decide what color socks to wear. IMO, the farther away control over education goes, the more unacceptable and inferior much of the education becomes. My daughter is a teacher in another State. She recently told me she is not allowed to fail students. One result? The students know this. There are some with character who will continue to work hard, and those who are less willing, get even lazier. They don't worry about failing, because they can't.

Biblical principle issue- no warrant for government schools. Parental authority to raise, educate children

14

News Item7/2/2020 6:51 AM
Jim Lincoln | Nebraska  Find all comments by Jim Lincoln
ohn of UK, you might find Emmett Loughlin entire book on the Google address that I gave.

https://tinyurl.com/ydfduchs

Now that is a Google address, and by the way, Any tinyurl can be expanded by just putting it in the search box of DuckDuckGo.

he did make a
https://tinyurl.com/ht63zl9 (Pilgrimage From Rome) unfortunately not to Christianity though.

13

News Item7/2/2020 6:37 AM
Jim Lincoln | Nebraska  Find all comments by Jim Lincoln
Emmett McLoughlin wrote:
....
In these countries, for hundreds and in some instances more than a thousand years, the Roman Catholic Church alone was the moral teacher of the millions, and the Roman Catholic Church alone must bear the full responsibility before God, both in the past and in this, our time, for the good or bad morals of the people.

....

In the rich soil of freedom of thought and worship prepared and preserved by Protestantism and Freemasonry (not through the Catholic inspiration of Cardinal Robert Bellarmine, as parochial school children are taught), the poor discredited Church of Rome grew luxuriantly.

The founding fathers' precautionary measures for effective. separation of church and state protected the Catholic Church from governmental interference. No ruler picked its bishops or controlled its priests, as in many of the countries of the Old World. No laws governed its schools. No inspectors censored its sermons.

From a handful of despised, ignorant immigrants it has grown within a few generations to the wealthiest, the most numerous, the most powerful church in America.

The Roman Catholic Church has become respectable....

--- "Crime and Immorality in the Catholic Church"❗👎

https://tinyurl.com/ydfduchs

12

News Item7/2/2020 2:10 AM
John UK  Find all comments by John UK
Thank you cv for your lengthy post.

Long time no see, I hope you are well enough.

11

News Item7/2/2020 1:09 AM
Jim Lincoln | Nebraska  Find all comments by Jim Lincoln
Mike, just one reason that the state may fund education on the local level, is because local school districts may not have the money to pay for all the teachers they need or some of the facilities ❗👍
Mark Joseph Stern wrote:
On Tuesday, in a sweeping 5–4 decision, the Supreme Court forced a majority of states to fund private religious schools in a ruling that compels millions of U.S. taxpayers to subsidize Christian education—even if financing another religion violates their own beliefs. Incredibly, this maximalist decision did not go far enough for two conservative justices who would apparently let states establish an official religion. In dissent, Justice Sonia Sotomayor described the majority’s decision as “perverse.” That may be an understatement: Its decision is the culmination of a yearslong assault on secular governance and augurs even more radical rulings down the road....
excerpt from,"John Roberts Just Bulldozed the Wall Separating Church and State"

https://tinyurl.com/yavgue3o

10

News Item7/2/2020 12:28 AM
cv  Find all comments by cv
John UK wrote:
As for biblical practice, I honestly do not know what the Bible teaches about it. Is there some teaching on schools?
John, God separates His children and outlines how they are to live in a world that is hostile towards Him. God defines what a marriage is. God takes a child and places it smack dab on the lap of the parents and and admonishes them to bring up a child in His ways, warning of consequences if you don't follow.

I have yet to see where God hatches kids in state schools, where parents then go to sign them out subject to states retained ownership and oversight. It is clear who God holds responsible for the child and its upbringing.

What about schools? A system set up by any name should support what God has already established. By its very nature, Homeschooling equips and empowers parents. State schools replace parents and is hostile to biblical values

In the US, the government cannot take away peoples rights but they can encumber with regulations. The US is unlike any other country that has ever existed!

For UK and its spawned countries, the state can set mandatory requirements out of the hands of parents and illegalise Homeschooling.

9

News Item7/1/2020 4:11 PM
John UK  Find all comments by John UK
Mike wrote:
It's robbery when some of what you give them is given back, but disguised as aid. There is no issue with state gov maintaining state roads and bridges, state courts and police, etc. There is issue when they decree what shall be taught local schools. That isn't their realm of responsibility. State money used for schools, given as carrots to donkeys, would be better used for the services of which you wrote. If schools cannot pay their own way, where does the the funding come from, other than from the people in the first place? The districts need provide their own funding, or adjust superintendents' and teachers salaries and retirement packages according to what they can afford. Biblical, no?
Mike, are you saying that there has been a recent change in the system? That the curriculum in schools is now set by the state, whereas it was once set independently? That appears to be what you're saying.

As for biblical practice, I honestly do not know what the Bible teaches about it. Is there some teaching on schools? I mean schools which cater for every child, not just the people of God.

8

News Item7/1/2020 3:51 PM
Mike | New York  Find all comments by Mike
John UK wrote:
I like the way you put that, Mike.
It's a bit like you giving Jim $100. He keeps $40 for managing, and with the rest he repairs the roads you drive on, maintains the court rooms, police and fire service etc, and whatever else the guv does with tax money. I'm not sure though why you call it robbery of taxpayers. Do you not believe in that system, which is the same in the UK? Is there another system which I've never heard of? You hinted at school districts paying their own way. How would that work out in practice?
It's robbery when some of what you give them is given back, but disguised as aid. There is no issue with state gov maintaining state roads and bridges, state courts and police, etc. There is issue when they decree what shall be taught local schools. That isn't their realm of responsibility. State money used for schools, given as carrots to donkeys, would be better used for the services of which you wrote. If schools cannot pay their own way, where does the the funding come from, other than from the people in the first place? The districts need provide their own funding, or adjust superintendents' and teachers salaries and retirement packages according to what they can afford. Biblical, no?
7

News Item7/1/2020 2:38 PM
B. McCausland  Find all comments by B. McCausland
Mike wrote:
It would be better if school districts paid their own way, instead of pretending State "aid" is anything more than robbery from taxpayers in all districts to bribe them each in return with the money robbed. Math seems to evade. It's like if I give $100 to Jim, and Carl gives $100 to Jim, and Jim keeps $40 for managing, then gives Carl and me back $80 each, calling it Jim aid in the process. Why is this hard to figure out?
Education should be private, not nationalized. That only gives the state say and control, and an opportunity to mould the population in particular directives and values, at the same time it plays the benefactor card.

God is not given the role of educating to governments but to parents, and they can delegate sections of this task if it seems necessary to whosoever they wish or think proper.

Hence, personal taxation should not be used to educate the masses.

6

News Item7/1/2020 2:18 PM
John UK  Find all comments by John UK
Mike wrote:
It would be better if school districts paid their own way, instead of pretending State "aid" is anything more than robbery from taxpayers in all districts to bribe them each in return with the money robbed. Math seems to evade. It's like if I give $100 to Jim, and Carl gives $100 to Jim, and Jim keeps $40 for managing, then gives Carl and me back $80 each, calling it Jim aid in the process. Why is this hard to figure out?
I like the way you put that, Mike.

It's a bit like you giving Jim $100. He keeps $40 for managing, and with the rest he repairs the roads you drive on, maintains the court rooms, police and fire service etc, and whatever else the guv does with tax money. I'm not sure though why you call it robbery of taxpayers. Do you not believe in that system, which is the same in the UK? Is there another system which I've never heard of? You hinted at school districts paying their own way. How would that work out in practice?

5

News Item7/1/2020 10:21 AM
Jim Lincoln | Nebraska  Find all comments by Jim Lincoln
Rebecca Klein wrote:
....
Secretary of Education Betsy DeVos has worked to give private schools a bigger share of coronavirus relief funding, but public school groups say her action violates the intent of the Coronavirus Aid, Relief and Economic Security Act and directly takes funding away from low-income students in public schools. While private schools around the country say they’re struggling, public schools ― which serve 90% of the nation’s children ― also anticipate having to lay off hundreds of thousands of teachers....
....
In a call with Catholic leaders last month, President Donald Trump promised to help these schools, calling himself the “best [president] in the history of the Catholic Church,” according to the Catholic news website Crux. 

But so far, Mears estimated that the closures will impact at least 50,000 students. 

“I know we’re important to the country,” said Mears, noting that a majority of sitting Supreme Court justices attended Catholic or Jesuit schools as children...

excerpt from,"At Least 100 Catholic Schools Across The Country May Not Reopen This Fall"

https://tinyurl.com/yd3dqfk6

Remember, fellows, Wild Billy Clinton was a product of a parochial school.

4

News Item7/1/2020 9:51 AM
Mike | New York  Find all comments by Mike
It would be better if school districts paid their own way, instead of pretending State "aid" is anything more than robbery from taxpayers in all districts to bribe them each in return with the money robbed. Math seems to evade. It's like if I give $100 to Jim, and Carl gives $100 to Jim, and Jim keeps $40 for managing, then gives Carl and me back $80 each, calling it Jim aid in the process. Why is this hard to figure out?
3

News Item7/1/2020 7:10 AM
Carl in Asheville | North Carolina  Find all comments by Carl in Asheville
This is a double-edged sword. This indeed helps students in the inner cities and in financially mismanaged counties to leave failing schools for a better option. However, I am sure many liberal state lawmakers will add conditions and stipulations on private and religious schools who accept those vouchers to allow certain liberal curricula. They also will probably require a certain number of immoral educators to be employed in these schools.
2

News Item7/1/2020 4:18 AM
Jim Lincoln | Nebraska  Find all comments by Jim Lincoln
"... the strong comments of former Franciscan priest Emmett McLoughlin. In his Crime and Immorality in the Catholic Church he argues as follows:

"The purpose of this book is to show that the Roman Catholic Church in its most important work sanctification is a failure. Among its members crime and immorality are greater than the unchurched or the members of other churches. Whatever else the Roman Catholic Church may be able to do… it cannot, it has not, and it does not make the majority of its members better and holier…. That the Roman Catholic Church has been one of the most powerful influences in the history of all civilization cannot be seriously denied…. [Nevertheless] It is my contention and my sincere conviction, from my experience in the Catholic educational system, my life of fifteen years in the priesthood, and thirteen years of constant observation and intense study since leaving the Church, that its influence on all civilization has been far more of evil than of good…. Morally, this book will show the high rate of crime and sin among Roman Catholics everywhere, and particularly in the United States. It will also demonstrate that this immorality is not in spite of Catholic education and training, but directly because of it..."

https://tinyurl.com/y8qpas4r

1
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