Will the Coronavirus Bring the End of Globalization?
Over the past week, the coronavirus has gone from an Asian contagion with ripple effects on international supply chains to a global pandemic that will plunge the whole world into recession. Travel has been halted across the globe. Borders are shut. Hundreds of millions of people are in effective lockdown in the European Union, and the U.S. is heading in that direction. The crisis has erased trillions of dollars from global stock markets and imperiled the future of millions of small businesses around the world, along with the livelihoods of vast numbers of wage earners.
In the months ahead, we are likely to see one of the sharpest economic contractions on record, and the downturn will undoubtedly serve as yet more evidence for those who have argued in recent years that globalization is coming to an end, or at least being rolled back. Nicolas Tenzer, chair of the Cerap think tank in Paris, argues...
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Mike wrote: "Nor ever shall be" applied to 70AD would have to mean what the world has experienced since has never been as bad as what happened in 70 AD, and it will never again be that bad. Does not history and prophecy say otherwise?
It is a perfectly fair point, bro. But not without its problems.
Matthew 24:34 KJV (34)¬† Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
One problem is that you will have to say that Jesus here is referring not to "this generation", but to a time at least 2,000 years into the future. But the text says that "this generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled". AD70 and the sacking of Jerusalem fits within the timescale of "this generation".
If your first principle of interpreting the Bible is to take the text at face value, take the plain meaning of the text, rather than spiritualising it, then you are going to have to take it into account when interpreting the other verse.
Of course, there is a tendency, whenever a verse contradicts my framework of theology, to either ignore that verse or say, "I don't understand that text." And we all do that, to some degree or another.
"Nor ever shall be" applied to 70AD would have to mean what the world has experienced since has never been as bad as what happened in 70 AD, and it will never again be that bad. Does not history and prophecy say otherwise?
Unprofitable Servant wrote: Matthew 24:21 For then shall be ‚ÄĒ great tribulation, ‚ÄĒsuch as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
It is a difficult passage this one, brother. Is it past, or is it future? It sure looks like past.
Matthew 24:34 KJV (34)¬† Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
Also Matthew 16:28.
There was great tribulation in Jerusalem in AD70 when it was besieged. The historical account by Josephus is so graphic and detailed that it can make sensitive hearts full of grief for the awful things that happened there.
Read "I, Pencil' essay by Lawrence Reed and you will see that a simple pencil cannot be made without resources from around the world. Hold up your cellphone and see how many rare earth elements from China are used in it. Ladies, your diamond ring may have an African source. Gold market--anyone buying gold these days with the markets down? That could come from many different countries. Now, I did hear that the reason Italy leads the EU with this virus is that they had many Chinese migrant workers in their factories (mostly N. Italy), who went home Jan 25 for Chinese New Year, ate a lot of bats, rats, and other strange creeping crawling things (all prohibited by the Bible), got the virus, then returned to work in Italy, thus spreading it to a population with 22.6 percent elderly, the highest in the EU.
Unprofitable Servant wrote: Thank you John. It takes away having to defend against a position that is not held. As stated before not joining in discussion on the timing of what is described in I Thessalonians 4 God bless
No problem brother.
I'm just thinking out loud, when I say that folks who believe in a pre-tribulation rapture, must have in mind a somewhat different and possibly excessive tribulation from that which is normally experienced as part of the Christian pilgrimage, as it says in scripture...
Acts 14:22 KJV (22)¬† Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.
I wonder what sort of tribulation these folks mean? It cannot be mere death or beheadings, because these were commonplace in the early church. Therefore it must be something far worse, possibly mental torture, or stress, or life difficulties, or germ warfare (as we recently experienced in England) or sickness on a massive scale, complete unemployment, oceans going berserk, climate drastically changing, governments crumbling, and so on.
Unprofitable Servant wrote: Why use the term if no one here believes it? It just a derogatory term used by amillennials. Nothing secret about the rapture regardless of its timing. Thus has been what I‚Äôve been trying to point out all along
Bro US, my apologies if you have been offended because of my innocent use of the term 'secret rapture'. I have been led to believe that some hold the rapture occurred in secret. Maybe you can furnish me with a more accurate view of how the rapture will happen?
I tell you what, to show good will and no desire whatever to Yee Ha you, I will choose to use the phrase which takes up more characters, but may be helpful in maintaining an equilibrium in convo, namely, a 'pre-tribulation rapture'. Is it okay for me to do that?
It would be equally lovely to have a reciprocal from Reformed-deniers, and for them to desist from terms like 'frozen chosen' et al. Sweetness is possible in Christian fellowship, but it requires more than a unilateral effort. If you get my drift.
Now this pre-tribulation rapture doctrine is incorrect. When the church is raptured, it is the end of the world, there is no more. The second advent is the last advent, no more. That is what Bible teaches.
Why use the term if no one here believes it? It just a derogatory term used by amillennials. Nothing secret about the rapture regardless of its timing. Thus has been what I‚Äôve been trying to point out all along
Unprofitable Servant wrote: John UK, you are quoting an amillenial assessment of what Darby believed.
Brother, if I recollect correctly, my last quotation was from Thomas Ice. Who is Thomas Ice?
[Thomas Ice is the executive director of the Pre-Trib Research Center on the campus of Liberty University in Lynchburg, Virginia. The research center was founded in 1994 by Tim LaHaye and Ice to research, teach, proclaim, and defend pre-tribulationism. The center currently sponsors prophecy meetings and conferences and provides speakers for the purpose of discussion and lecture on the topic of pre-tribulationism.]
[Thomas Ice engages in frequent debates on the subject of the Rapture. He has also written and co-written over 20 books and articles on the subject. He is a frequent conference speaker at Bible conferences around the world.] wiki
I hardly think he would care to be called amillennial.
However, I take your point, and would like to see a quote from J N Darby himself concerning the use of the phrase 'secret rapture'. It is obvious he believed in one, where Jesus came secretly and called away the church in secret, but whether or not he used the phrase I do not ken.
Premillenial rapture did NOT start with Darby. John UK, you are quoting an amillenial assessment of what Darby believed. Please be kind to show where Darby called it a secret rapture from something he said not something that was said about him and include the reference .
Secret rapture is an amillenial term not a premileenial term. Pretty much the only place there term is used is on amillenial sites. Thanks
[Darby‚Äôs view of the premillennial advent contrasted with that held by the historicist millenarian school in two ways. First, Darby taught that the second advent would be secret, an event sensible only to those who participated in it . . . There were, in effect, two ‚Äúsecond comings‚ÄĚ in Darby‚Äôs eschatology. The church is first taken from the earth secretly and then, at a later time, Christ returns in a public second advent as described in Matthew 24 . . . .]
[Second, Darby taught that the secret rapture could occur at any moment. In fact, the secret rapture is also often referred to as the doctrine of the any-moment coming. Unlike the historicist millenarians, Darby taught that the prophetic timetable had been interrupted at the founding of the church and that the unfulfilled biblical prophecies must all wait upon the rapture of the church. . .]
John, nothing in your post attributes the "secret rapture" phrase to Darby. I don't know much about Darby. Did he use the term? I see the phrase is used by Pastor Rinne. As to the secrecy of the secret rapture, so called, what is it that makes it so? The rapture is either true or false. If false the point is moot. If true, there surely wouldn't be anything secret about it.
[The doctrine of the secret rapture emerged during the early 19th century through the teachings of John Nelson Darby (1800‚Äď1882). Darby was one of the early leaders of the Plymouth Brethren movement, and his teachings became known as ‚Äúdispensationalism.‚ÄĚ]
[Darby‚Äôs dispensationalism distinguished sharply between Israel and the church. The former was earthly, he believed, and the latter heavenly. God had two distinct peoples and separate plans for each. Thus Darby understood Old Testament prophecies as applying only to Israel, the earthly people of God. Rather than ‚Äúspiritualizing‚ÄĚ such prophecies, he expected a literal fulfilment of God‚Äôs promises to literal Israel. So when, according to dispensational thought, would God fulfill his prophecies to Israel? During the millennium (Rev. 20:1‚Äď8) after Jesus‚Äô second coming.]
[So in order for God to resume these plans for Israel, Darby believed, God would first need to remove the church from the world. Hence arose the need for the secret rapture. Darby had in effect proposed something new: a two-stage return of Jesus. Jesus would first come to ‚Äúrapture‚ÄĚ the church, and then return again in visible glory.] Pastor Jeramie Rinne
Anyone is free‚ÄĒdespite nonsensical protestations against the concept of free will granted to man by a sovereign God‚ÄĒto believe anything he or she chooses to believe. I believe in the premillennial, pre-tribulation rapture of the church because I believe that is the only position consistent with the entire body of scripture pertaining to end-time events. I realize that there are many who believe that I will be surprised to find myself caught in the Great Tribulation. I believe they will be surprised to find themselves caught up, not in the midst of it, at the end of it, or a thousand years after it takes place, but before it even begins. To suggest that the current minor case of global heartburn, the coronavirus outbreak, is comparable to the world‚Äôs coming major myocardial infarction is quite a stretch. We are not in the Great Tribulation. We are in the waning days of the age of grace, and it behooves us all to extend God‚Äôs offer of grace to as many as we can as quickly as we can, ‚Äúfor the night cometh, when no man can work.‚ÄĚ