John MacArthur clarifies views on Beth Moore, women preachers
Several weeks after publicly criticizing well-known Christian author and speaker Beth Moore, John MacArthur once again weighed in on the issue of women in church leadership, warning that â€śempowering women makes weak men" and "weak men make everybody vulnerable to danger.â€ť
â€śToday, I want to address a very important issue that has been stirred up on the internet with me kind of in the middle of it,â€ť the pastor of Grace Community Church in California told his congregation in an hour-long message delivered Sunday.
â€śI do not like to give short answers. I donâ€™t like to get put in a position to do that, because I feel like that just escalates confusion, so I want to take the opportunity to address the issue of women preachers this morning and to give you a more thorough answer from the Word of God on this very, very important subject.â€ť...
Never thought I'd see the day, but I agree with John MacArthur 100%. The verses are clear that women are not to Pastor a church. Just as Paul writing to Timothy and describing a "Bishop" (Pastor to us) being the "husband of one wife". Also makes it VERY clear that only men are to be Pastors/Preachers. What Paul meant by, "I suffer a woman not to teach". How difficult can it be? What's difficult is Max Lucado caved to the liberals, and he's lost our family. I'll never trust him again. Just one more way it is crystal clear that we are indeed in the LAST days.
Mike wrote: No pc compromise here Frank, but if you don't mind, what do we do with 1Cor 11:5?
Thanks for the questions! First of all the praying and prophesying they are referring to would involve â€śspeakingâ€ť out loud. Iâ€™m not sure what that has to do with teaching a Sunday School class?? Women are natural talkers as most know and my experiences in churches saw that there as well. I have never been to a church except Charismatic ones where someone prophesied from the pews. If you think there is a modern day equivalent to that, let me know and we can discuss that. And surely you donâ€™t think I would ever suggest that women canâ€™t pray out loud in a church. Praying and teaching arenâ€™t the same and praying with their heads covered meant they were submissive. IOW, the purpose was to show what a submissive Christian female would do.
Asking their own husbands simply meant if the husband was a Christian then he should be consulted and not the resident priest of pastor, or someone elseâ€™s husband. Respect, submission.
Why not bring up women teaching younger women? Or women teaching their children? And other people have brought up Debra?
Frank wrote: 1 Cor. 14:34 Let your women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak; but they are to be submissive, as the law also says. Thanks for your comment Neil. Be prepared to take heat from our compromising, politically correct folks. If you go where they want you to go, then you would be saying that women wouldn't even be able to greet other women. That is not being silent. The verse is framed within the context of submission and the law. Yes, a Sunday School class is still part of the church.
No pc compromise here Frank, but if you don't mind, what do we do with 1Cor 11:5?
"But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven."
On the one hand, 14:34 says keep silent in in the churches, not permitted to speak. On the other hand, 11:5 says don't prophesy with her head uncovered. As far as I know, prophesy would be difficult and pointless to do silently. Since Paul is writing to the church at Corinth, 11:5 is also about behavior within the church. She is not to prophesy without her head covered. This is different than asking her husband questions which should wait till they get home. (14:35)
I gotcha. Thanks, that is a compelling scripture, but would you say that 1 Cor. 11:5 stands against the idea of an absolute prohibition against a woman ever opening her mouth and saying a single word in a church service? I think that submission is in view, and prophecy and tongues is the context of 14:34.
Teaching/authority over men is prohibited, but I just don't think we have a clear command to keep women from teaching children at church. I could be wrong, so let me know if you have something for me. Thanks
Neil wrote: Anyone with teaching authority, including women Sunday School teachers, is a church leader, but churches are selective in obedience to Scriptural directions on ecclesiastical practice.
Hey everybody (especially Dr. Tim), it's been awhile since I've really been on here. It's crazy how not much has changed ha. Anywho, my question is to you Neil. Do you oppose women teaching a children's Sunday school? It doesn't look like it from your comment, but I am just checking. Thanks
"AND THE LORD GOD SAID UNTO THE WOMAN, WHAT IS THIS THAT THOU HAST DONE ?...
AND THE LORD GOD SAID UNTO THE SERPENT...THOU ART CURSED ABOVE...EVERY BEAST OF THE FIELD...:
AND I WILL PUT ENMITY BETWEEN THEE AN THE WOMAN, AN BETWEEN THY SEED (ANTICHRIST) AND HER SEED (CHRIST); IT (THE WOMAN'S SEED aka CHRIST) SHALL BRUISE THY (THE SERPENT'S) HEAD, AND THOU (SERPENT) SHALL BRUISE HIS (CHRIST'S) HEEL.
UNTO THE WOMAN HE (GOD) SAID, I WILL GREATLY MULTIPLY THY SORROW AND THY CONCEPTION; IN SORROW THOU SHALT BRING FORTH CHILDREN; AND THY DESIRE SHALL BE TO THY HUSBAND, AND HE (MAN) SHALL RULE OVER THEE (WOMAN)."-GENESIS 3:13-16
"LET THE WOMAN LEARN IN SILENCE WITH ALL SUBJECTION (TO THE MAN).
BUT I SUFFER NOT A WOMAN TO TEACH, NOR TO USURP AUTHORITY OVER THE MAN, BUT TO BE IN SILENCE.
FOR ADAM WAS FIRST FORMED, THEN EVE.
AND ADAM WAS NOT DECEIVED, BUT THE WOMAN BEING DECEIVED WAS IN THE TRANSGRESSION."-1 TIMOTHY 2:11-14
"LET YOUR WOMEN KEEP SILENCE IN THE CHURCHES: FOR IT IS NOT PERMITTED UNTO THEM TO SPEAK; BUT THEY ARE COMMANDED TO BE UNDER OBEDIENCE, AS ALSO SAITH THE LAW.
AND IF THEY (WOMEN) WILL LEARN ANY THING, LET THEM ASK THEIR HUSBANDS AT HOME: FOR IT IS A SHAME (aka SIN) FOR WOMEN TO SPEAK IN THE CHURCH."-I CORINTHIANS 14:34-35
Douglas Fir wrote: Thanks, 'Frank,' for putting the exact verse out there. Feminism is indeed part of the same curse, but it is now so ingrained in Western culture that it is nearly a crime to speak against it, even in Christian circles. Some will say, 'There you go again, defining yourself by what you are against!' Well, we are just telling what the Bible teaches.
I agree with you on this issue. I also believe that the church compartmentalizes feminism. So the "conservative" church is off limits to women being leaders, but the government and the general society isn't. I have argued these points for years on SA and have been called a misogynist.
All liberal abominations have come about because of the feminist movement.
From Article:- ""While men and women are equally sinful and â€śneedâ€ť one another, authority and submission were established in the fall, MacArthur said, adding: â€śAdam was not deceived, Eve was deceived. If we stay in the order that God has designed us everybody flourishes.â€ť"
Liberalism is a dangerous plague at work in the whole world. Its author is Satan.
Liberalism in the churches is the voice of the antichrist - NOT of Jesus Christ.
As we observe the churches such as Anglican-Episcopalian etc, become less and less Biblical in doctrine, we recall that in the 1960's the sinful usurping of men by women started and began the disobedience of many churches and nominal christians. Today it is of plague proportion and the world is a more reprobate place for these evil transgressions of Bible laws.
Secular society has completely disobeyed the Bible and will(is) suffer the consequences of God's wrath. We already see that Sodom and Gomorrah has taken over the western nations and they cannot see the error and stupidity of their ways. The spread of sodomite depravity is destroying a weakened society and its traditional authorities.
Lev 18:25 And the LAND is defiled: therefore I do visit the iniquity thereof upon it....."
Thanks, 'Frank,' for putting the exact verse out there. Feminism is indeed part of the same curse, but it is now so ingrained in Western culture that it is nearly a crime to speak against it, even in Christian circles. Some will say, 'There you go again, defining yourself by what you are against!' Well, we are just telling what the Bible teaches.
â€śLet me tell you something, if children are in charge, weâ€™re in trouble,â€ť MacArthur continued. â€śIf women are in charge, weâ€™re in trouble. And if you look carefully at our nation, you would have to agree that itâ€™s childish, young, inexperienced, ignorant women who are ascending into power. When you overthrow the divine order, the results are always disastrous. And again, itâ€™s not anti-women any more than itâ€™s anti-children. But itâ€™s a divine judgment on a nation that its young and its women are in power.â€ť
Isaiah 3:12 As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths.
Excellent article. I am glad he didnâ€™t limit women being leaders to church roles. Most in our Christian community do that to be politically correct and assuage the feminist community. There is nothing we can do to undo the feminist movement, but we can speak out against it.
I am so glad he has identified this issue as a problem in today's society. Isaiah 3 is a good chapter that I have cited here before, where it is a curse for the nation that children rule. It is an uphill battle. I was listening to a national Christian radio network the other day with a program that really is nothing more than a constant promo for new books coming out (they should tell us how much the publisher is paying them!), and the book being discussed was about raising boys (as if, in the millenia since the church began, no one had thought of writing a book on this!), and the first thing the hostess mentioned was all about feminism. Hello! The book is about boys, not feminism. Let's hear what New Ideas the author has to say about boys, esp. today with so many negative influences.
John MacArthur was correct. Max Lucado needs to read his bible. The Bible is very clear on the roles of females in the church. Like it or not, these are the instructions and commands of God. Read a REAL Bible and not these "bible perversions" which now flood the Bible book stores and are, unfortunately being used so often now in churches. The rebellion is against GOD, not man. This "cafeteria christIanity" although prevalent, is dangerous.