Stone Pillar in the City of David is Where Abraham Met Melchizedek?
An Israeli archaeologist has uncovered the remains of an altar believed to be from around the time when Abraham met the high priest Melchizedek in Jerusalem.
Archaeologist Eli Shukron has spent much of his life looking for Bible history in the City of David. Shukron gave CBN News an exclusive look at what he feels is one of his most important discoveries kept under lock and key that dates back 4000 years â a stone pillar.
Shukron says the pillar, found in the City of David, is just like the one described in Genesis 28 when Jacob had a dream in Bethel of a ladder reaching up to Heaven. After the dream, Jacob said, âHow awesome is this place! This is none other than the house of God, and this is the gate of heaven! Then Jacob rose early in the morning and took the stone that he had put at his head, set it up as a pillar, and poured oil on top of it."...
Hi Chris, I agree, the answer will not be found within the charismatic and pentecostal groups. Rather, in the Bible itself, the word of God.
1 Corinthians 12:27-31 KJV (27)Â Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular. (28)Â And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. (29)Â Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? (30)Â Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret? (31)Â But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.
Paul here tells me again that such gifts as healings or working miracles were not confined to apostles; nor were they on-demand gifts, but given by the Spirit.
1 Corinthians 12:11 KJV (11)Â But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
That is, as the Spirit wills.
Paul also tells me that all these gifts are not given to one man, but divided up. ___________
Mike NY, thank you for contributing bro, I accept your explanation of the passage, and it still has not come to pass, eh?
No, Christopher, you are correct. in fact a free-standing pillar was usually a pagan worship item!
2 Kings 18:1-5 Now in the third year of Hoshea son of Elah king of Israel, Hezekiah the son of Ahaz king of Judah began to reign. He was twenty-five years old when he began to reign, and he reigned twenty-nine years in Jerusalem. His motherâs name was Abi the daughter of Zechariah. He did that which was right in Yahwehâs eyes, according to all that David his father had done. He removed the high places, and broke the pillars, and cut down the Asherah. He also broke in pieces the bronze serpent that Moses had made, because in those days the children of Israel burned incense to it; and he called it Nehushtan. He trusted in Yahweh, the God of Israel; so that after him was no one like him among all the kings of Judah, nor among them that were before h
Unless a pillar it's part of a Tabernacle or Temple, or perhaps, a synagogue--it is profane.
Hi John, as far as I'm aware, that's it, and what the arguments are based upon. I guess if there were any clear scriptures, there wouldn't be the arguments.
The Apostles exercised all of the gifts, on-demand, it seems, as they announced the good news, as signs that Jesus was the prophesied One; The Savior, but it seems the gifts continued on within the church, considering Paul's instructions on decency, order, and false prophets, etc. The completion of the canon of scripture? The resurrection, and Jesus appearing to the Apostles? Seems subjective in relating those to "when that which is perfect is come". Could be, but like I said, it seems to me that the gifts were to continue on.
Problem is that the Charismatics and Pentecostals, etc, still approach the gifts of The Spirit, as being on-demand, as made available to the Apostles, and that's what I disagree with. I also disagree that tongues are still the sign and evidence of being filled with The Holy Ghost, which disillusions many when they refuse to be forced to start babbling their new "prayer language".
Christopher000 wrote: John, only have a minute, so can't look up any scriptures right now, or say as much as I'd like, but cessationists base their claim on the gifts ceasing and failing on Paul's words: "...when that which is perfect is come". Personally, I think the interpretation is subjective, but applied as being, The Christ, the perfect one, the redeemer, and His incarnation, in this case.
Hi Chris, yes the text is:
1 Corinthians 13:8-10 KJV (8)Â Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. (9)Â For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. (10)Â But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
To say that "when that which is perfect is come" relates to the completed canon of scripture is, to my mind, stretching it, wresting it, getting it to say anything other than what it clearly means.
What I am needing is a clear biblical statement for that position known as cessationism.
That is, biblical rather than logical or pragmatic.
Paul said that prophecies would fail and tongues would cease (I Corinthians 13:8). At some point in his apostolic career, he was unable to heal a sick brother (II Timothy 4:20). I have often said that anyone who claims to have the gift of tongues but is unwilling to pick up a rattlesnake is a liar and a hypocrite (Mark 16:17-18). So far I havenât found any takers.
John, only have a minute, so can't look up any scriptures right now, or say as much as I'd like, but cessationists base their claim on the gifts ceasing and failing on Paul's words: "...when that which is perfect is come". Personally, I think the interpretation is subjective, but applied as being, The Christ, the perfect one, the redeemer, and His incarnation, in this case.
Not relating anything you don't know already, I'm sure, but just wanted to chime in real quick. I'm not sure if there are any other "prooftexts" used or not.
Thanks for your answer Tim, it is most helpful. I especially love the last sentence concerning the gifts still given to the church members (as the Spirit wills), as we find in Romans 12:4-8.
The main difficulty I have is when you say that the "sign gifts" went out (for the most part) with the apostles, yet here in 1 Corinthians 12 we have an apostle telling the other disciples in the church about spiritual gifts given to them (to any of them) and including what could be described as "sign gifts" such as 'faith', 'gifts of healing', 'the working of miracles'.
So a couple of things come to mind. 1. The gifts involving miraculous events were not limited to the apostles and could be given by the Spirit to anyone in the fellowship, and 2. With such being the case, where in scripture do we find that these gifts to any church member ceased?, or 3. Ought we to see these gifts still, in the Christian church, and the reason we do not, is because we are not believing they are for today?
BTW thanks for your testimony regarding the Spanish. I have experienced the same thing but only in mine own language, when the Spirit enabled me to witness in a most supernatural way.
John, I believe, as do most Baptists, that the sign gifts went out (for the most part) with the apostles. I say âfor the most partâ because I would not want to limit God, and He could certainly impart any gift to any person at any time if He so desired. (I remember one time when I was witnessing to some Mexicans, and God enabled me to speak fluent Spanish. I speak very little Spanish normally. Was this the gift of tongues? Perhaps.) Nevertheless, the principle taught in the passage you quoted is still applicable today, and that is that the Spirit still manifests Himself in the church through the various spiritual gifts He gives to His servants (see Romans 12:4-8).
Dr. Tim wrote: Some will, of course, say that it doesnât mean what it says, or that it isnât âapplicableâ (funny, I thought II Timothy 3:16 taught that ALL scripture is applicable),
Dr Tim, help me out here, as I am currently looking at the applicability of scripture, especially passages like this.
1 Corinthians 12:7-11 KJV (7)Â But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. (8)Â For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; (9)Â To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; (10)Â To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: (11)Â But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
Is there anything here, which we ought not to apply in today's church? Or can we go for the full house application?
It's not a trick question, it is perfectly serious and something I am currently working on. Thank you. P.S. Thanks for the Lev 1 text.
Speaking of animal sacrifices, Christopher, Leviticus 1, and particularly verse 3, sheds a great deal of light on the doctrine of free will. Some will, of course, say that it doesnât mean what it says, or that it isnât âapplicableâ (funny, I thought II Timothy 3:16 taught that ALL scripture is applicable), but itâs there for all who have an ear to hear, or an eye to see, as the case may be. Itâs really sad that so many will try to twist scripture to fit their own system of theology rather than adapting their theology to what the Bible actually says.
Genesis 28:18 18 And Jacob rose up early in the morning, and took the stone that he had put for his pillows, and set it up for a pillar, and poured oil upon the top of it.
Good morning Jim, I don't think there was any mention of Melchizedek setting up a pillar, unless I missed it. I watched the video, and was surprised to see what Mr Shukron was considering a pillar, but then read that the pillar was merely the stone that Jacob had used as his pillow that night, which explained the size.
At any rate, I suppose it's a stretch, since like you said, there's no writing or identifying marks, etc., so who knows. The area was definitely used for animal sacrifice, and a lot of it, apparently, given the wide channel, and the holes cut into the blocks of stone to tie the animals to, etc. I also noticed the olive press integrated into the stone slab, so it seems it was an active, well used area anyway.
Now I think the Bible is accurate and of course the Word of God, but too many people stretch what is in there. Nothing about Melchizedek putting up a pillar. The Rock I see in the picture is a nondescript lump it has no writing on it. This "archaeologist" certainly has some far-fetched ideas.đ