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Breaking News All | Religion | Society | Tech | Choice | SA Newsroom
FRONT PAGE  |  9/30/2020
WEDNESDAY, MAY 1, 2019  |  24 comments
PC(USA) lost over 140 churches, nearly 5 percent of active members in 2018
The Presbyterian Church (USA) lost over 140 congregations and nearly five percent of its active membership in 2018, according to recently released statistics by the denomination’s Office of the General Assembly.

While still the largest Presbyterian denomination in the United States, from 2017 to 2018 PC(USA) saw their active membership decline by 62,375 people, going from approximately 1.41 million to approximately 1.35 million.

The number of PC(USA) member congregations also fell, going from 9,304 in 2017 to 9,161 in 2018, or a difference of 143 congregations. ...


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· Page 1 ·  Found: 24 user comment(s)
News Item5/2/19 6:15 PM
Connor7  Find all comments by Connor7
Sir, I have said what I have said. I am done wasting my time.
24

News Item5/2/19 4:37 PM
John Lee | UK  Find all comments by John Lee
Darren Thomas wrote:
You clearly have no idea how synagogue worship was conducted.
There are quite a few examples in the NT. Which ones are you referring to? You show me, and then I will show you why I said what I said.
23

News Item5/2/19 4:30 PM
Darren Thomas  Contact via emailFind all comments by Darren Thomas
John Lee wrote:
Let's think about how Jesus does this, when he attends a synagogue, even a synagogue where he is unknown. Let's think of him in Horeb Synagogue, for example. Is there a paid teacher there? Just one who teaches and the others just listen? And this one takes the entire 'service', announcing psalms, reading scriptures, teaching the word, and so on?
Not in my reading of the Bible, it never happened like that. And it never happened like that when the converted apostles attended the synagogues for many, many years after Pentecost.
Think about it.
You clearly have no idea how synagogue worship was conducted.
22

News Item5/2/19 3:46 PM
Adriel  Find all comments by Adriel
""The number of PC(USA) member congregations also fell, going from 9,304 in 2017 to 9,161 in 2018, or a difference of 143 congregations""

Matt 13:47 the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:
48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.
49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth."

21

News Item5/2/19 2:42 PM
John Lee | UK  Find all comments by John Lee
Connor, did you even see my two questions? Can you answer them? If not, please say so, and it is the end of the matter.

Connor7 wrote:
I am Reformed, all 5 points, etc. but my fellow Calvinists needs to cut it out, be watchful, be humble, cut the “I’m going to be a cool Calvinist” and actually be willing to say that MacArthur, White, Durbin, Molher, Phil Johnson, Lawson, etc. aren’t infallible and that you can rightfully disagree with them and point out their errors in a humble manner.
John Lee wrote:
Hi Connor, are you also saying that pulpit/pew or teacher/taught is somewhat fundamentally wrong? I would be interested to know how you go about telling Johnny Mac he is wrong, in order to edify the body, in what I call a clergy/laity divide system.
Shall I rephrase the question 2?

The meeting is in progress. You have your teacher in the pulpit, and you and twelve others are all taking notes and jotting down where teacher is in error. After the doxology you all retire to the back room for coffee, where twelve young men approach the teacher and humbly tell him where he is in error. Is that how it works in practice?

20

News Item5/2/19 2:28 PM
Connor7  Find all comments by Connor7
Sir, I did quote you, yet your false accusations and lies are apparent to onlookers.
19

News Item5/2/19 1:46 PM
John Lee | UK  Find all comments by John Lee
Connor7 wrote:
And sir, to be honest, your position is cultish, it is unbiblical, logically challenged, inconsistent, and I hope you do not live your life that way because it will cause you to have false hope and may have dire consequences in trying to find a church.
Connor, as I've said many times in the past to many people, please quote me directly on something I have actually said, (rather than build up a strawman), and query me on it. When I queried you, it was on something you actually said, not me speculating as to what you might or might not believe. So I asked you a direct question in the hope of getting a direct answer, but all I have got is aggro. Sure, that is fine, I am well used to it, but our intention bro ought to be edification rather than Bible bashing and winning arguments. I am not arguing myself, merely making points and asking you questions, because I think you are wrong to claim to be able to analyse the teachings of all men (you gave some actual examples and named them) and show them their errors. And now, you are saying that I have analysed what you are teaching, and gotten it wrong, but you won't say where I am wrong.
18

News Item5/2/19 1:17 PM
Connor7  Find all comments by Connor7
Sir, have you ever read a bible commentary? I seriously have to ask you that question because there are times that we scratch our head and say, “Where did John Gill get this from?”

Any pastor who is faithful to scripture is open to questions and challenges regarding his interpretation.

And sir, to be honest, your position is cultish, it is unbiblical, logically challenged, inconsistent, and I hope you do not live your life that way because it will cause you to have false hope and may have dire consequences in trying to find a church.

17

News Item5/2/19 1:07 PM
Connor7  Find all comments by Connor7
John, if you believe that every teacher or pastor has to always be correct 100% of the time in order to be qualified and cannot possibly make an interpretational mistake, then there would be no pastors because every pastor is human and thus is fallible.

It seems that you believe that questioning and challenging a pastor on a certain issue cannot be done with humility, respect, submission, love, gentleness, and that the pastor cannot take it with the same attitude. And that it causes division, and somehow it sets me up as a higher authority than him.

“If he = Taught and Johnny Mac = Teacher, he reserves the right to analyse Johnny's teaching (and correct him) and proclaim himself higher in knowledge than Johnny, because he as Connor knows far more than Johnny Mac and ought himself (Connor) to be in the Teaching position and Johnny Mac can be in the Taught position.”

No, it’s to recognize that Pastor MacArthur is human and I know that he is smarter than me, but being smart doesn’t make you infallible...

16

News Item5/2/19 12:52 PM
Connor7  Find all comments by Connor7
If a layman cannot question or challenge a pastor/teacher then that is cultish. I have taught Sunday School at my church before and have just about always said at the end, “If you have any questions, you can always ask me.” And when I quote something I not only give citations but also bring the book with me (if necessary) so they can borrow it to see if I’m taking it out of context

I had someone “question/challenge” my interpretation of a passage, we talked about it, I gave my reasons for believing my interpretation and we talked about it for a little bit etc.and it was encouraging to me and he was encouraged as well. I was able to reference Josephus (pg.number) and lend him a book (pg. number as well)

15

News Item5/2/19 11:12 AM
John Lee | UK  Find all comments by John Lee
Darren Thomas wrote:
I have no issue with anyone challenging teachers. I do have an issue with your constantly insinuating that there is some sort of artificial divide between clergy and laity. The fact is that the teacher/taught divide is biblical, but you just don't like it.
Challenging teachers? How about "disagree with them and point out their errors"?

If folks disagree with their teachers and point out their errors, what sort of teachers are they sitting under?

Let's have a think about this, and see if your teachers have taught you to be respectful, willing to hear another, rather than Bible-bashing him into submission.

Let's think about how Jesus does this, when he attends a synagogue, even a synagogue where he is unknown. Let's think of him in Horeb Synagogue, for example. Is there a paid teacher there? Just one who teaches and the others just listen? And this one takes the entire 'service', announcing psalms, reading scriptures, teaching the word, and so on?

Not in my reading of the Bible, it never happened like that. And it never happened like that when the converted apostles attended the synagogues for many, many years after Pentecost.

Think about it.

14

News Item5/2/19 10:56 AM
Darren Thomas  Contact via emailFind all comments by Darren Thomas
John Lee wrote:
Can I take it then, that you disagree with Connor on this? If he = Taught and Johnny Mac = Teacher, he reserves the right to analyse Johnny's teaching (and correct him) and proclaim himself higher in knowledge than Johnny, because he as Connor knows far more than Johnny Mac and ought himself (Connor) to be in the Teaching position and Johnny Mac can be in the Taught position.
Do you see the problem?
And then, you can take two highly respected Teachers of the Bible, and they can hold opposite views on certain subjects, which they will teach to their adherents, and at least one of the groups will be hearing something untrue.
Would you like some examples of this?
I have no issue with anyone challenging teachers. I do have an issue with your constantly insinuating that there is some sort of artificial divide between clergy and laity. The fact is that the teacher/taught divide is biblical, but you just don't like it.
13

News Item5/2/19 8:55 AM
John Lee | UK  Find all comments by John Lee
Darren Thomas wrote:
Would you have challenged the apostles in the same manner? Did they not start this so called divide that you so strongly object to? Are all teachers? (1 Cor 12.29) is a rhetorical question to which the obvious answer is no. So if there are spiritually gifted teachers and they function as such, is the teacher/taught divide unbiblical?
Can I take it then, that you disagree with Connor on this? If he = Taught and Johnny Mac = Teacher, he reserves the right to analyse Johnny's teaching (and correct him) and proclaim himself higher in knowledge than Johnny, because he as Connor knows far more than Johnny Mac and ought himself (Connor) to be in the Teaching position and Johnny Mac can be in the Taught position.

Do you see the problem?

And then, you can take two highly respected Teachers of the Bible, and they can hold opposite views on certain subjects, which they will teach to their adherents, and at least one of the groups will be hearing something untrue.

Would you like some examples of this?

12

News Item5/2/19 8:40 AM
Darren Thomas  Contact via emailFind all comments by Darren Thomas
John Lee wrote:
Hi Connor, are you also saying that pulpit/pew or teacher/taught is somewhat fundamentally wrong? I would be interested to know how you go about telling Johnny Mac he is wrong, in order to edify the body, in what I call a clergy/laity divide system.
Would you have challenged the apostles in the same manner? Did they not start this so called divide that you so strongly object to? Are all teachers? (1 Cor 12.29) is a rhetorical question to which the obvious answer is no. So if there are spiritually gifted teachers and they function as such, is the teacher/taught divide unbiblical?
11

News Item5/2/19 3:38 AM
John Lee | UK  Find all comments by John Lee
Connor7 wrote:
I am Reformed, all 5 points, etc. but my fellow Calvinists needs to cut it out, be watchful, be humble, cut the “I’m going to be a cool Calvinist” and actually be willing to say that MacArthur, White, Durbin, Molher, Phil Johnson, Lawson, etc. aren’t infallible and that you can rightfully disagree with them and point out their errors in a humble manner.
Hi Connor, are you also saying that pulpit/pew or teacher/taught is somewhat fundamentally wrong? I would be interested to know how you go about telling Johnny Mac he is wrong, in order to edify the body, in what I call a clergy/laity divide system.
10

News Item5/1/19 9:38 PM
Connor7  Find all comments by Connor7
...Out of all the things that the church is struggling with, do we really need to add fuel to theological fire? That’s why I really don’t want to be part of the “Calvinist Club” so to speak.

I am Reformed, all 5 points, etc. but my fellow Calvinists needs to cut it out, be watchful, be humble, cut the “I’m going to be a cool Calvinist” and actually be willing to say that MacArthur, White, Durbin, Molher, Phil Johnson, Lawson, etc. aren’t infallible and that you can rightfully disagree with them and point out their errors in a humble manner.

And to realize that Beer and pipes ain’t going to win them brownie points in Heaven and they aught to be willing to stop the use of them for the sake of Christian unity.

Well, I better get off of my soap box. 📦

9

News Item5/1/19 9:24 PM
Connor7  Find all comments by Connor7
“The new challenge is how to take the Mohler/ Russell/ Greear / Rainer- apologize for everything , revert to the welcoming liberalism and make the gospel a flawed Calvinist model when the majority of people have 75 years of baptist fundamentalism teaching that asked people to give the heart to Jesus and things will work out as he walks along with you. Simple people can’t handle academic arrogance and follow it off a cliff without saying,” umm wait a minute chosen frozen professor, we’re paying for this calamity “.

May you please expound on the flawed Calvinist model? Because I’m a Calvinist and I’m not a fan of academic arrogance, I’m not a fan of the pipe smoking beer drinking casual dress preachers, because I think they miss the theological boat of not offending the brethren...

8

News Item5/1/19 8:04 PM
Benjamin | KCK  Find all comments by Benjamin
Praise God!! !!! PCUSA or 🤮USA is a heretical “church” hopefully the decline continues as we all know it will along with the Episcopalians.
7

News Item5/1/19 5:50 PM
Douglas Fir | Zones Four to Six  Find all comments by Douglas Fir
How do those numbers compare with other Presbyterian denominations? We know from another story here about the shooting at the synagogue in California that the Orthodox Presbyterians only have about 30,000.
Of course, this all pales in comparison to the Catholics, still the largest in the USA, and the Baptists (of all their various branches).
6

News Item5/1/19 3:04 PM
Adriel  Find all comments by Adriel
WCF 25/5. The purest churches under heaven are subject both to mixture and error;a and some have so degenerated as to become no churches of Christ, but synagogues of Satan.b Nevertheless, there shall be always a Church on earth to worship God according to his will.c

a. Mat 13:24-30, 47; 1 Cor 13:12; Rev 2-3 throughout. • b. Rom 11:18-22; Rev 18:2. • c. Psa 72:17; 102:28; Mat 16:18; 28:19-20.

There is still much work to be done. Faith does not contend with human convictions, but it will manifest itself in ways to prove the hearts of Christians. When sin dominates one of its characteristics is the blindness of the sinner.

5
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