Christians are the world's most persecuted minority worldwide, according to Dennis Prager, and the monstrous terror attack in Sri Lanka during Easter Sunday morning masses by Muslim terrorists was a perfect illustration of this increasingly hideous trend.
On the Left, that's less horrifying than it is embarrassing. They don't like Christians to start with, and they've since gone a long way to coddle Muslim extremists, too. Having to acknowledge that Christians are in peril might just mess up some of their favored 'narratives' about white supremacists or other bad apples in their book. Or, it make just someone in flyover country identify with the victims. Can't have that.
It's gotten so bad they are now trying to deny Christians their consciously chosen designation as Christians. In Sri Lanka, most Christians are self-chosen converts. Elsewhere, people also identify themselves as Christians...
John Lee said, "Thank you Connor. The reason you don't see legalism is simply because you are young in the faith and do not understand the term."
Well you've managed to insult my spiritual growth and my intelligence. Just in one sentence.
"Or maybe it is because I use the term legalism and you think it means salvation by works."
Nowhere did I suggest it referred to it as salvation by grace + works.
As a Calvinist, would you say that the grace of God is at the very root of your motivation? Is it God which "worketh in you to will and to do according to his purpose"? Or is it down to the pep talks in your IFB church?"
Here again you've not only managed to insult my elders, but you've managed to insult my friends who members of my church.
We don't give "pep talks" my pastors do expository preaching, and doctrinal teaching. In evangelism we focus on the Spirit's work in covicting the hearts of men and my pastors reject the sinners prayer and the using of gimmicks to try to make "a decision for Christ."
John, so glad to hear you say this because I have been put down called ecumenical,hurt by certain ones on here that wanted me off here through the attitude, just ignore her then because sheâ€™s heretic. Now, this same man, has no followers to speak of, because he threw them to the curb and now are where I was on here .you see, God will help you with this in his own ways and His own timing And plenty lessons learned along the way. ups, just to let you know, I knew you were actually talking to Douglas, but wanted to give my reason for not commenting on this subject and did despite my misgivings.
Unprofitable Servant wrote: John, what he says about Calvinism is strikingly true. Iâ€™ve seen evidence of it on this forum.
Brother, I can see this can only go from bad to worse. This is the danger of course of having differing denominations on a website, and expecting them all to get on, instead of realising that they have split up over issues and caused a fragmented Body of Christ. This is something that causes me much grief, as it does the Lord Jesus Christ himself. Thankfully, the old sinful nature will be totally eradicated at death, and we shall become like HIM because we shall see him as he is. There will be none of this in heaven, praise God, no IFB's and no Reformed Baptists and no Presbyterians and no Methodists and no any other schism in the body. All those who currently hate me and delight to post nonsense concerning me, if they are truly born again of the Spirit, will have that attitude removed in heaven, and all will get on with me just fine.
So I will make this post my last on this thread, and not be found guilty of sustaining something that is getting out of hand. Thank you.
John, what he says about Calvinism is strikingly true. Iâ€™ve have seen evidence of it on this forum. But you correctly stated in so many words was that it is inaccurate to use that to characterize all of them
From my knowledge of IFB churches I would not say it is inaccurate to venture that there are hundreds of them out there that have not fallen into the errors pointed by this Pastor (who is a broadcaster on this site so it would be interesting if he joined the discussion) and David Cloud
There is undoubtedly much fodder on the internet if youâ€™re interest is to make this a platform to castigate IFB churches and their people but it will just add to an ever increasing number of people that you disdain and stand in judgment of here on this forum. You might want to give that some thought
The Quiet Christian wrote: John, ..if love covers a multitude of sins, and love certainly covers a multitude of my own, then there certainly can be love and fellowship amongst the saints.
Yes of course bro. I agree. This is why I don't understand why Dr Tim calls me...
A Blind Guide Puffed Up Like A Blowfish, Spiky and Toxic Inconsistent A Hypocrite Malicious An Opinion-Worshipper An Enemy Someone with Delusions of Infallibility A Fool
I thought it was just normal for IFB's to call others names, because they catch it from the Yee Ha preachers who do just the same from the pulpit and get their adherents to laugh about it, as though it was the funniest thing in the world to do so.
And now, because of Tim's onslaught against me, who am a child of God, I have to wonder if he is one of those IFB's who thought he could get born again by saying a prayer. Don't forget that he has missions to places where there are criminals and drug users, and he has reported good success on more than one occasion, with several men converting after he preached. I doubted it at the time but said nothing. See what I mean? What sort of gospel does he promote?
John, I believe it depends greatly on the congregation and the preacher. But I have found that those who stick to their Bibles and not their Arminian commentaries tend toward a more Reformed viewpoint.
Again, do I believe in what the standard Baptist believes? No. If I did, I would be Baptist and I'm not. But if love covers a multitude of sins, and love certainly covers a multitude of my own, then there certainly can be love and fellowship amongst the saints.
The opposite is strife and discensions and the like. James has some sharp words for why.
The Quiet Christian wrote: Having been around both camps I find it interesting how small the differences are between any group of people that is serious about what their Bibles say.
QC, I feel I have to differ with you greatly on that statement.
Take a fundamental doctrine, that of the new birth, which both IFB's and Reformed claim is crucial. Okay so you believe in the new birth, I believe in the new birth, and the doctor believes in the new birth. So what gives? Where's the problem?
The problem occurs when one says the new birth is an act of God initiating faith and repentance, and the other says the new birth happens as a result of faith and repentance.
But I say that there is no instruction in the Bible as to what a sinner can do to get born again. This is what you can expect to find at crusade or tent campaigns, where the preacher says, "Now I've told you the need of being born again. Do you want to be born again? This is what you must do: turn to the Lord and repeat after me, 'Dear God, I am a sinner.....' and so on."
This is a huge difference, and those in error often add to tares to the church by their easy-believism methods. Whereas...
When Dr Tim went from that monkier to another was because of confusion by some of the dr,so He said well just call me plain Tim. Totally different than what JohnUk did. Stay off and then come back on as John Lee. Confusion for some but not me. I knew . Nice try ,Frank.
Bro US, Thank you for replying. I always thought that David Cloud, whom I like very much, is an IFB. Maybe not, after all. But here is a snippet from his website home page.
"When I find a preacher who is playing games about biblical separation and who is showing signs of rejecting it, I refuse to have anything to do with him as far as ministry goes. I am not going to join his church. Iâ€™m not going to preach in his church. I am not going to preach with him on the same platform in meetings. I am not going to invite him to preach in my church. And I am not going to preach in churches that would have him!"
Amen and amen!
"There are a lot of compromised preachers in Independent Baptist churches who are saying it is OK to lighten up on separation. They say that music is more an issue of taste, that teaching the biblical principles of modest dress is legalism, that it is fine to take the youth group to Dollywood and initiate them into Hollywood."
Oh, compromised preachers. Is David Cloud right or wrong? A LOT of compromised preachers in Independent Baptist churches?
David says he wants to STOP THE ROT. And I'm with David. Sticking your head in the sand just don't do the job, bro.
John Lee wrote: All my info I got from their website, under "What we believe", where it says what they believe about New Evangelicalism and Calvinism. The church is wrong on Calvinism. http://www.fundamentalistbaptistchurch.org/
Thanks for your response. Two things
1. He is is southern California where what he says may be true, 2. It is still his opinion not necessarily based upon any facts.
You were, however, the one who used it to paint with a broad brush ALL IFB churches worldwide. I think your characterization to be mislead and inappropriate. I cannot speak to other parts of the country or even the world but here in the South, IFB churches are alive and well and the standard by which we are judged is not what was made by the Synod of Dort but the Scriptures as a whole.
Connor7 wrote: @John Lee, ... I see no hint of legalism....
Thank you Connor. The reason you don't see legalism is simply because you are young in the faith and do not understand the term. Or maybe it is because I use the term legalism and you think it means salvation by works. But no, bro, it goes far deeper than that.
It all comes down to heart motive.
In my life, I have done a large amount of evangelistic work. But why? Why have I used my free time to take the gospel to my fellow countrymen, instead of taking holidays and cruises and "Christian" tours to the Holy Land? Think about it. What is your own heart motive for doing what you do for the Lord?
As a Calvinist, would you say that the grace of God is at the very root of your motivation? Is it God which "worketh in you to will and to do according to his purpose"? Or is it down to the pep talks in your IFB church? Is it from love for Christ, or a desire to conform to your brethren and sisters at the church? Is the motive love for your neighbour, or do you evangelise without love, merely it is duty, and if you don't do your duty you are frowned upon by your elder? Does Dr Tim tell us our duty, or does he tell us about Christ's great love for sinners?
Unprofitable Servant wrote: John, who in the world is your so-called IFB expert that states the vast majority of IFB churches are now new evangelical?
Good morning Bro US, and thank you for your question. If this IFB church is an impostor, telling lies about the group situation, then perhaps an IFB on the forum might like to phone them and complain, and tell the pastor he's a liar. ______________________________ Do you want to learn more about God? Do you want to study the Bible? We are friendly Fundamental Independent Baptists, kind-of like the church your grandparents might have once attended. Join us for lively old-fashioned singing, fellowship, (and yes!) preaching from the Old King James Bible that you "must be born again" and "Jesus and the Bible come first". We're in Santa Ana, right in the heart of Orange County ("OC") and just a few minutes by freeway from Disneyland. Come worship God with us this Sunday at 6:30 p.m. Please call us for directions: (714) 241-1070 ________
All my info I got from their website, under "What we believe", where it says what they believe about New Evangelicalism and Calvinism. The church is wrong on Calvinism.
Aye, Conner7, 'tis true, my laddie. Having been around both camps I find it interesting how small the differences are between any group of people that is serious about what their Bibles say. Often it comes down to a question of baptism and what the Lord has been and will be doing. Even the baptism issue is fairly small when considering that we both raise our children the same for the same reasons. In terms of claiming to have a lock on the mind of God, that's a sure path to heresy. I don't see what some of my IFB brothers see, but none of us enter heaven based on our theology and doctrine exam scores. And I see through the glass just as darkly. So who am I to say I have it all right? Nay. My Savior is the only reason I've been redeemed. Same for all of us. Not saying we don't have differences and certainly not ecumenical. I believe what I believe based on careful study, prayer, and pondering of the word but also because this is where the Spirit has led me. Same for all of us.
@John Lee, Iâ€™m an IFB, Dr. Tim is an IFB, and Iâ€™m sure thereâ€™s more on here, but the IFB â€ścommunityâ€ť (so to speak) donâ€™t agree on every point.
Dr. Tim is KJVonly, Iâ€™m not, Dr. Tim is not a Calvinist, I am. So we can easily list our agreements and disagreements but in the end weâ€™re both IFB Christians.
I see no hint of legalism in the good doctor. So painting with a broad brush is not the wisest thing in the world and I hope that you do recognize that you are slandering elders (and my elders) which is unseemly and a sin, you seem to be very casual in serious accusations.
@The Quiet Christian, Youâ€™re a Presbyterian? Iâ€™ll have to post a link for you.
Dr. Tim wrote: Different moniker, but the same old John. Sad.
I don't think I agree. When you went from Dr. Tim, to plain old Tim and then back to Dr. Tim, none of us thought you were trying to hide anything or were being deceptive? Your online personality didn't change in the slightest. When John went from JohnUK to John Lee all of us understood it was the same person.
Appreciate Quiet Christianâ€™s last post, I certainly need a dose of that
John, who in the world is your so-called IFB expert that states the vast majority of IFB churches are now new evangelical? How did they come to this conclusion? I am aware of several dozen IFB churches and none would fit that description. I am not saying all IFB churches are without issues but to say just a handful left that are true to Scripture is way out of bounds.