Forget original sin, says Steve Chalke: 'We are made originally good'
Steve Chalke, the Baptist minister and founder of the Oasis Trust who sent shockwaves through the evangelical community when he declared his support for same-sex relationships, has criticised the traditional Christian understanding of 'Original Sin'.
Chalke says Western readings of the story of Adam and Eve have been coloured by St Augustine's interpretation, which is different from understandings present in the Eastern Orthodox tradition.
'We make some assumptions that aren't there,' he says 'The story of Adam and Eve and the eating of the fruit that's been forbidden from them doesn't mention Original Sin. It doesn't even tell us that the serpent is really Satan.'...
But the Bible never claims the Devil of being the serpent ( sarcastic voice) Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain. And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, Revelation 20:1‚Ä≠-‚Ä¨2 ESV
B. McCausland wrote: US This conversation has made me think, and trust you do not mind these thoughts.
Sister BMcCausland, thanks for your good thoughts. Time does not permit me to respond fully right now but I don't believe I implied the fall caught God an Omniscient God by surprise, as you point out our Lord was as a Lamb slain from the prior to creation. Man being made in the image of God gave him a uniqueness above all of God's other creatures. I believe the Scripture clearly teaches that Adam made a conscience choice. God bless.
Something made perfect for its purpose, created out of the hand of God as man was, should never be considered 'imperfect' or evil, because of its potential to get spoiled.
Say we can have a perfectly made cake. Yet, it does not cease to be perfect by design or creation because intrinsically it includes the potential of going into decay. Say the cake can win the top price for design, and continue in that state of perfection as long as it is preserved at freezing temperatures, free from decay
So man was made 'perfect', but this is different from not being vulnerable, to what God did not place a barrier.
The tree of knowledge of good and evil evidences to this. Adam's safety remained inside the sphere of knowing only good; say it was not God's desire that he should know evil. So God from the beginning warned Adam of the limit of refraining from the knowledge of evil. This is what the fall in reality is: the helpless bondage of our will to the knowledge of evil, (Rom.7:21) from which we have not been made fit to dislodge from once entrapped by it, as God does, which fact only comes to us by His enabling in redemption, "I find .. a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me "I thank God through Jesus Christ ... then ... I serve the law of God" Cont
Unprofitable Servant wrote: .. Adam and Eve had a "free will" Gn 2:16-17¬† And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:¬† But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof (had to be a possibility) thou shalt surely die.
God made man in His image, so the ability to choose was apparently part of that image.
Did not Lucifer have a will to rebel against God yet the Bible states Ez 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee
US This conversation has made me think, and trust you do not mind these thoughts.
First of all, in creating man, God did not create a replica of himself that could not sin, say he did not create another god with all the innate self-restrain he possesses to keep holy This is why the possibility of disobedience is mentioned in Gn 2:16-17. Say the fall did not take God by surprise: in his prescience it was in the horizon, as we learn that the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world
Perhaps we get a deviant understanding of the matter by looking at it with the clumsy leases of 'free will' or not 'free will' May cont
Well, sorry to hear that, Connor. I'm sure you've exhausted every medical and medicinal avenue trying to get to the bottom of it all and for some relief. Yeah, scary thing, and thank God for God. We sure don't understand some things, but just look at what we have to look forward to...Him. Not easy to keep our head up at times, but who knows what God has in store for you, and I'm glad it hasn't paralyzed you emotionally as you keep on truckin' and doing your thing.
Chris, thank you for your concern about my health, it's been a tad bit worse, in the sense that I'm having nocturnal seizures almost every night, which affects me in multiple areas, and I had a seizure on Monday which has really slowed me down this whole week.
But in the midst of all this, while it is discouraging in many respects, God is still using me, and I am thankful for that. Mike that is a good point concerning the definition of perfect, I think that is a good distinction you made, I'll think about that.
Kev, you made a good point as well, concerning the sovereignty of God and the counsel of His will, we certainly will never understand everything, the gospel is perhaps one of the greatest examples of something we'll never comprehend.
Connor7 wrote: There's no question on whether or not Adam and Eve had a freewill, but their will, their nature, was to love God...
Hey Connor you have to remember that Christ had a chosen people before the world began so could Adam really of just not ate? Read this verse carefully:
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: FOR IN THE DAY that THOU EATEST thereof thou shalt surely die.
God says in the day you eat not if you eat now look at the wording closely of Gen 3:5. This is a mystery and it's about the sovereignty of God just as wicked men Crucified Jesus exactly according to the scriptures. God and Adam had a close relationship. God had left Adam to himself when he fell that's why you have Adam hearing God call him:
9 And the Lord God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?
This is a picture of what man will do when God is not with him. I think all God had to do for Adam to fall is leave Him on his own it's the same for us as well. You might have a hard time figuring it out because I don't think we can comprehend. God is sovereign in all things and God works all things after the council of His own will Eph 1:11.
Connor7 wrote: --- I get what you say when you said, "God made man in His image, so the ability to choose was apparently part of that image" I think I understand your argument, but I don't see why or how, perfect creatures would choose to rebel against God. --- I am open to arguments, I hope I don't sound closed minded or anything like that, but I don't see how or why their nature turned from perfectly good, to evil. ---
We might ask the same about the angel who became Satan, and the others who became demons. Perhaps God doesn't make his creatures perfect as we would define it, but makes them whole, meaning with a mind and will of their own. It's our idea of "perfect" that may need adjusting. Remember he put the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the garden. If Adam and Eve were perfect as we like to define it, they couldn't have eaten of it, but they did. Thus we need understand the warning about the tree was given only because they could choose to eat of it. Surely God could have made man unable to sin, but since he created for his own pleasure, what pleasure would there be in creating automatons?
Psalm 147:11 "The LORD taketh pleasure in them that fear him, in those that hope in his mercy."
Hi Connor, hope things have been going good. How has your heath been, the seizures, etc.?
Thanks for the honorable mention, ha-ha, but more importantly, I always like when someone says their mind is open. I really thought the simplicity of my comment would get more of a response and explained it well, but that's probably my narcissism acting up again. : ) Good comments, US. Anyone mind if I mention somwthing? Actually, forget it.