The Pope has called for the abolition of capital punishment and declared life imprisonment "a hidden death penalty".
In a meeting yesterday with representatives of the International Association of Penal Law, Pope Francis said: "All Christians and people of good will are thus called today to struggle not only for abolition of the death penalty, whether it be legal or illegal and in all its forms, but also to improve prison conditions, out of respect for the human dignity of persons deprived of their liberty.
"And this," he continued, "I connect with life imprisonment. Life imprisonment is a hidden death penalty."...
John Yurich USA wrote: To embrace Jesus as ones Personal Savior means to pray to Him and ask Him to come into ones heart and cleanse one of all sins and become ones Savior and to trust in Him alone for salvation. After I embraced Jesus as Savior and started trusting in Him alone for salvation I started being guided by the Holy Spirit to know that there are some unscriptural Catholic doctrines and some unscriptural parts to the Mass and to remain in the Catholic Church to spread via written communication to other Catholics on discussion forums that salvation comes only through embracing Jesus as ones Savior and to trust in Him alone for salvation.
Unprofitable Servant, gave you excellent advice which you ignore. I see you trying to lead other Catholics in the foolishness that you practice!
George Whitfield wrote: There are so many stony ground hearers, who receive the Word with joy, that I have determined to suspend my judgment till I know the tree by its fruits. I cannot believe they are converts till I see fruit brought back; it will never do a sincere soul any harm.
from, [URL=http://www.biblebb.com/files/MAC/SC03-1050CDNotes.htm]]]A Close Look at Invitations and Altar Calls...[/URL].
I forgot to mention earlier. As I was reading Genesis last night the Lord spoke to me and told me that when he was speaking to Noah and his sons the context was regarding food. So when animals kill man for food, the animal is to be killed because man is made in the image of God. When man kills man for food, he is to be killed because man is made in the image of God. This makes sense and maintains the context.
And for Exodus, the extractors must also make use of the other scriptures as well, like killing children and witches for example.
The one who quoted the ot scriptures hasn't established applicability to a death penalty today. The point is abuse of scripture that runs rampant. Extracting texts here and there and trying to use them for every thing to suit one's fancy. According to those ot scriptures, I can therefore go shed me some blood of alot of folks out there who have shed some blood!
pennned wrote: Elmer Yoder, you haven't established anything on this topic. GS, greetings to you and yours. I think you've made a good point here. I've been scratching my head through this thread. Israel had a death penalty during the OT era when they were a nation under Mosaic law. I'm not arguing pro/con for today even, but can we be accurate with the scriptures?
Francis seems to be inconsistent; He opposes the death penalty but is one of the biggest advocates of the ongoing sacrifice of Christ (mass). btw, The mass of Christ or "christmas", which is one of the most highly regarded rc "holidays" will soon be celebrated. Hopefully, Christians won't be so adamant in keeping Christ in it. If this catholicized version of the winter solstice wasn't still the grand rc sacrifice of Christ in churches on the 25th of the 12th month, it would be easier to ignore and concede that perhaps the meaning of the word "christmas" was immaterial. But the death of Christ and christmas are synonymous...a rose by any other name. Also would love to see the creation museum to, at least, revert back when they called it "Incarnation Day".
Elmer Yoder, you haven't established anything on this topic.
GS, greetings to you and yours. I think you've made a good point here.
I've been scratching my head through this thread. Israel had a death penalty during the OT era when they were a nation under Mosaic law. I'm not arguing pro/con for today even, but can we be accurate with the scriptures?
Ok, since the quoted ot scriptures are not applicable to a death penalty today, we can now examine the nt scriptures to see if there is anything that is applicable to a death penalty today. Is what you quoted GS all the proof texts in your opinion or is there more?
GSTexas wrote: Romans 13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. 13:2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. 13:3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: 13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil. Executing wrath upon him that doeth evil seems to justify the death penalty to me.
Romans 13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. 13:2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. 13:3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: 13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
Executing wrath upon him that doeth evil seems to justify the death penalty to me.
Elmer K. Yoder wrote: So how is the extracted quote from Genesis applicable to a death penalty today?
Another poster suggested that it, I only said that Evangelicals support the death penalty 2 to 1. I do understand that Ceasar does have that authority though.
One day in Jerusalem, I spent a lot of time alone in The Church of Flagellation. The Israelis had closed off several gates because of trouble with the Muslims, so there we were with the Via Dolorosa much to ourselves. I think anyone that can deeply feel the miscarriage of justice men are capable of, would have their doubts about the death penalty. In the silence, I could feel the crowd demand freedom for Barabbas and death to my LORD. It isnt an easy thing to experience. I understand the Bishop of Rome made his first visit there this past Spring
So how is the extracted quote from Genesis applicable to a death penalty today?
SteveR wrote: That is correct Elmer. Further, the Noahide Laws apply to ALL men, whereas the Mosaic Law only to Covenant people. That Noahide law doesnt provide a process for the appointment of an executioner.
SteveR wrote: That is correct Elmer. Further, the Noahide Laws apply to ALL men, whereas the Mosaic Law only to Covenant people. That Noahide law doesnt provide a process for the appointment of an executioner. In Scripture, often the executioner of this law is often guilty of breaking it and will receive their due(Deuteronomy 32:35 To me belongeth vengeance). That is why the LORD provided Cities of Refuge for HIS special people where the High Priest has authority over the Avenger of Blood. This becomes a very worthwhile study if you consider that King Ahab was drawn to Ramoth Gilead, a city of Refuge, for his demise. 1 Kings 22:20 And the LORD said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner. Joshua 21:38 And out of the tribe of Gad, Ramoth in Gilead with her suburbs, to be a city of refuge for the slayer; and Mahanaim with her suburbs,
Let me add that sometimes the executed and the executioner are the same person
Three Israeli soldiers who fought in Gaza committed suicide in past month. In three separate incidents, soldiers were found with their guns beside them. All 3 belonged to the brutally barbaric Givati Brigade in the most recent rape of Gaza
Elmer K. Yoder wrote: In the quoted ot scripture in Genesis, the Lord is speaking to Noah and his sons correct? And in Exodus he is speaking to Moses?
That is correct Elmer. Further, the Noahide Laws apply to ALL men, whereas the Mosaic Law only to Covenant people. That Noahide law doesnt provide a process for the appointment of an executioner. In Scripture, often the executioner of this law is often guilty of breaking it and will receive their due(Deuteronomy 32:35 To me belongeth vengeance). That is why the LORD provided Cities of Refuge for HIS special people where the High Priest has authority over the Avenger of Blood. This becomes a very worthwhile study if you consider that King Ahab was drawn to Ramoth Gilead, a city of Refuge, for his demise. 1 Kings 22:20 And the LORD said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner. Joshua 21:38 And out of the tribe of Gad, Ramoth in Gilead with her suburbs, to be a city of refuge for the slayer; and Mahanaim with her suburbs,
Gen 9:6 Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.
Exod 21:12 He that smiteth a man, so that he die, shall be surely put to death.
In the quoted ot scripture in Genesis, the Lord is speaking to Noah and his sons correct? And in Exodus he is speaking to Moses?
Unprofitable Servant wrote: Elmer, is the O.T. it was the avenger of blood, usually a member of the family of the slain. In the N.T. the Bible states that God gave that authority to civil governments. Ultimately it is God who is the One who carries it out through human instrumentality. Why do you ask?
John Yurich USA wrote: To embrace Jesus as ones Personal Savior means to pray to Him and ask Him to come into ones heart and cleanse one of all sins and become ones Savior and to trust in Him alone for salvation. After I embraced Jesus as Savior and started trusting in Him alone for salvation I started being guided by the Holy Spirit to know that there are some unscriptural Catholic doctrines and some unscriptural parts to the Mass and to remain in the Catholic Church to spread via written communication to other Catholics on discussion forums that salvation comes only through embracing Jesus as ones Savior and to trust in Him alone for salvation.
Thanks for your answer John. Tell me does this also have any practical outworking in your daily living outside the doors of the RCC, other than on forums?
Elmer, is the O.T. it was the avenger of blood, usually a member of the family of the slain. In the N.T. the Bible states that God gave that authority to civil governments. Ultimately it is God who is the One who carries it out through human instrumentality. Why do you ask?
Unprofitable Servant wrote: First of all, real John Yurich, you completed missed ladybug's point, but the dear sister is far more articulate than I, so I will let her address that if she wishes. Second, would you be so kind as to explain two things: What, in your thinking, does it mean to "embrace" Jesus Christ as Savior? How is "embracing" the Lord Jesus Christ as Saviour(John UK spelling) manifest in the life of one who has done that? thanks
To embrace Jesus as ones Personal Savior means to pray to Him and ask Him to come into ones heart and cleanse one of all sins and become ones Savior and to trust in Him alone for salvation. After I embraced Jesus as Savior and started trusting in Him alone for salvation I started being guided by the Holy Spirit to know that there are some unscriptural Catholic doctrines and some unscriptural parts to the Mass and to remain in the Catholic Church to spread via written communication to other Catholics on discussion forums that salvation comes only through embracing Jesus as ones Savior and to trust in Him alone for salvation.
This is not stated nor implied in the quoted ot scriptures.
SteveR wrote: The executioner is the fellow who has to follow orders, not be the judge of whether the condemned deserve to die. Sometimes those involved can be quite observant Mark 15:39 And when the centurion, which stood over against him, saw that he so cried out, and gave up the ghost, he said, Truly this man was the Son of God.
Elmer K. Yoder wrote: Considering these extracted portions of scripture, who is to be the executioner?
The executioner is the fellow who has to follow orders, not be the judge of whether the condemned deserve to die. Sometimes those involved can be quite observant
Mark 15:39 And when the centurion, which stood over against him, saw that he so cried out, and gave up the ghost, he said, Truly this man was the Son of God.
You are not saved by praying a prayer, you are saved by the Lord working in your heart! Just because you "accepted the Lord" at an alter call doesn't mean you are truly saved. Words are one thing, but actions are entirely different. All regenerate and truly saved Christians will bear fruits by which you can discern them. So far I have not seen any good fruit on your tree. All I have seen is your defence of a man centered cult, your pride and arrogance, and your deciet towards others! I'm not trying to attack or hurt you, I'm trying to help you by pointing out these things. I pray to God you will see the error of your ways and turn to defending the God centered religion rather than man centered religion. I once did the same thing with Mormonism, but I figured out I was wrong, and I turned to the truth for my guidance! I hope you will do the same!
Dr. Alan Cairns | 8/3/2009
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