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FRONT PAGE  |  1/15/2021
SUNDAY, MAR 2, 2008  |  28 comments
New Bible reveals God's heart towards poverty and injustice
The Poverty and Justice Bible, the latest release from Bible Society, has broken new ground as the first ever to literally highlight the more than 2,000 passages that reveal God’s sorrow over poverty and injustice, and His command to believers to act to eradicate them.

The new edition challenges the notion that the Bible is a dusty, outdated rulebook, and shows that God – through the Bible - was already speaking out on poverty long before anyone else.

The Rt Rev Dr Tom Wright, Bishop of Durham and Bible Society’s President, said, “Poverty and injustice are two of the biggest issues of our day, challenging the minds of politicians and social activists around the world. ...


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News Item3/27/08 9:30 PM
Observation Post  Find all comments by Observation Post
Gayle,

Dr. Phil will answer for himself but you seem to be confusing "biblical" evil with sin (man's folly!). They are not one and the same for if they were God would be the author of sin which is impossible.

Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these [things].

1Jo 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

28

News Item3/27/08 9:20 PM
Gayle Pospeschil | Massachusetts  Contact via emailFind all comments by Gayle Pospeschil
Dr. Phil wrote:
I wonder if N. T. Wright has considered the 2000+ verses that highlight God's sovereignty indicating that He is the ulitmate cause of evil. He does not sorrow over injustice nor poverty, but considers these to be necessary for His just purposes.

Pray tell what 2000+ verses you're referring to "indicating that He is the ulitmate cause of evil"?! The cause of evil is man's pride, arrogance, and rebellion against God. I refer you particularly to James 1'13,14. I take great exception to you blaming God for man's folly!
27

News Item3/4/08 12:50 PM
Dr. Phil  Find all comments by Dr. Phil
Minnow wrote:
I guess it is time to close this particular discussion.
God be with you brother.
OK. I am glad that you still consider me a brother, . . . sister. I was only appealing to your better judgment. 2 Cor. 1:2
26

News Item3/4/08 12:38 PM
Minnow  Find all comments by Minnow
Dr. Phil wrote:
When you quote from human authorities alone as these are the infallible truth to support your arguments, what other implication can be made? Your hero Bavinck is one of the fathers of Neo-liberalism.
I did not!
Infallibility was YOUR introduction, not mine.

As for Bavinck. I have never actually read him nor used him before in these discussions. I used him advisedly by other reformed sites and people, who clearly see a different theologian in him, than you do. Because he raised an interesting point on the use of the term "foreknow."

I guess it is time to close this particular discussion.
God be with you brother.

25

News Item3/4/08 11:20 AM
Dr. Phil  Find all comments by Dr. Phil
Minnow wrote:
Recap??
OK
Who is the one who implied that I saw a human as an "infallible" source. (Ad hominem?)
And
From the statement above; Who is the one who implies that I don't know that the Bible alone is God's Word.? (Ad hominem?)
When you quote from human authorities alone as these are the infallible truth to support your arguments, what other implication can be made? Your hero Bavinck is one of the fathers of Neo-liberalism. (See Page 3 in the essay below)

[URL=http://www.trinityfoundation.org/PDF/247-248-MarksofNeoLiberalism.pdf]]]The Marks of Neo-liberalism[/URL]

24

News Item3/4/08 9:58 AM
Minnow  Find all comments by Minnow
Dr. Phil wrote:
when I challenged your use of Warfield as an authority, you resorted to an ad homenim ..............

.....The Bible alone is the Word of God.

Recap??
OK

Who is the one who implied that I saw a human as an "infallible" source. (Ad hominem?)
And
From the statement above; Who is the one who implies that I don't know that the Bible alone is God's Word.? (Ad hominem?)

23

News Item3/4/08 8:51 AM
Dr. Phil  Find all comments by Dr. Phil
Minnow wrote:
"infallibility" ???
Sounds as though you're perfect Dr Phil!
Minnow,

Let's recap here to see a pattern:

First, you use Bavinck as an authority to support your point with Mike (not that I am in agreement with Mike).

Second, I challenged your use of Bavinck as an authority because he is a "mystic". If you are truly interested I can supply information, even from Abraham Kuyper.

Third, to support your argument against my challenge, you quoted from BB Warfield as your authority.

Fourth, when I challenged your use of Warfield as an authority, you resorted to an ad homenim argument to suggest my implication to infallibility. All I am doing is suggesting that you look more carefully at your arguments to some supposed authority figure. I was only warning you about Bavinck, because he is clearly a mystic in the family of Schleiremacher whose authority was "feelings, experiences". Consider the mulititude of directions and doctrines this path can take you. "Feelings and experiences" are the "winds of doctrines", they do not provide you with absolute truth. The Bible alone is the Word of God.

Before we quote from any man, we should first consider their view of truth and wisdom.

22

News Item3/4/08 7:55 AM
Minnow  Find all comments by Minnow
Dr. Phil wrote:
I like many things written by Warfield, but I can not subscribe to his infallibility as you do.
"infallibility" ???

Sounds as though you're perfect Dr Phil!

21

News Item3/3/08 5:45 PM
Mr. J | Australia  Find all comments by Mr. J
fuzzy logic wrote:
To add, man's pride is what God cannot overcome even with the death of His Son. Pride prevents us from seeing our own vileness and our desperate need of salvation IN THIS life.
My friend you are so right on the latter part of your statement and so wrong in the first part. If God could not overcome human pride then no one would be saved. For it is certain that we cannot overcome our own pride. That is why God must first break you, break your heart and show you for what you really are. The world does not need to be saved from poverty. It needs to be saved from sin - and it has because God has sent His Son into the world and He said, "It is finished!" It is in how we treat others that we demonstrate the love of God in our hearts. Jesus says, "You say you love Me? Show it!" He doesn't want you to just sing about it on Sunday. He wants you to live it in every second of your life. You cannot be a true Christian and close your eyes to injustice or turn your back on the poor.
20

News Item3/3/08 4:33 PM
Dr. Phil  Find all comments by Dr. Phil
Minnow wrote:
Well Dr Phil;
I guess you already realise that not everybody agrees with you that Bavinck belongs to that particular stable.
"the controversies of the earlier half of the nineteenth century compacted a body of Calvinistic thought which gives way but slowly: and the influence of the great theologians who adorned the Churches during that period is still felt (especially Charles Hodge, 1797-1878, Robert J. Breckinridge, 1800-1871, James H. Thornwell, 1812-1862, Henry B. Smith, 1815- 1877, W. G. T. Shedd, 1820-1894, Robert L. Dabney, 1820-1898, Archibald Alexander Hodge, 1823-1886). And in Holland recent years have seen a notable revival of the Reformed consciousness, especially among the adherents of the Free Churches, which has been felt as widely as Dutch influence extends, and which is at present represented in Abraham Kuyper and Herman Bavinck, by a theologian of genius and a theologian of erudition worthy of the best Reformed traditions." (B B Warfield)
Or don't you like Warfield either?
I like many things written by Warfield, but I can not subscribe to his infallibility as you do. Sorry.

[URL=http://www.trinityfoundation.org/PDF/Review_268_counterfeit_miracles_foreword.pdf]]]Counterfeit Miracles[/URL]

19

News Item3/3/08 4:15 PM
Minnow  Find all comments by Minnow
Dr. Phil wrote:
I don't think the "mystic" Bavinck is a good source
Well Dr Phil;
I guess you already realise that not everybody agrees with you that Bavinck belongs to that particular stable.

"the controversies of the earlier half of the nineteenth century compacted a body of Calvinistic thought which gives way but slowly: and the influence of the great theologians who adorned the Churches during that period is still felt (especially Charles Hodge, 1797-1878, Robert J. Breckinridge, 1800-1871, James H. Thornwell, 1812-1862, Henry B. Smith, 1815- 1877, W. G. T. Shedd, 1820-1894, Robert L. Dabney, 1820-1898, Archibald Alexander Hodge, 1823-1886). And in Holland recent years have seen a notable revival of the Reformed consciousness, especially among the adherents of the Free Churches, which has been felt as widely as Dutch influence extends, and which is at present represented in Abraham Kuyper and Herman Bavinck, by a theologian of genius and a theologian of erudition worthy of the best Reformed traditions." (B B Warfield)

Or don't you like Warfield either?

18

News Item3/3/08 3:17 PM
Dr. Phil  Find all comments by Dr. Phil
Minnow wrote:
Mike, Bavinck wrote...
"Augustine accepted a twofold restriction of this concept: in his system the decree of predestination follows that concerning creation and the fall, and he generally used the term “predestination” in the favorable sense, as a synonym for “election,” while he gave the preference to the term “foreknowledge” to indicate reprobation: predestination, then, is what God does, namely that which is good; while “foreknowledge” refers to what man does, namely evil. In general, scholasticism, Roman Catholicism, and Lutheranism, accepted this interpretation of the term predestination."
(H Bavinck)
Minnow,

I don't think the "mystic" Bavinck is a good source to recommend to support your arguments. Please consider the following critical analyses of him for another perspective:

[URL=http://www.trinityfoundation.org/PDF/240-241-BiblicalViewofTruth.pdf]]]The Biblical View of Truth[/URL]

[URL=http://www.trinityfoundation.org/PDF/254_Pernicious_Hypocrisy_RReymond.pdf]]]Pernicious Hypocrisy[/URL]

17

News Item3/3/08 2:58 PM
Minnow  Find all comments by Minnow
Mike wrote:
I wonder why he saw "the foreknowledge of God and the freedom of man together" as contradictory? Foreknowledge does not require them to be.
Mike, Bavinck wrote...

"Augustine accepted a twofold restriction of this concept: in his system the decree of predestination follows that concerning creation and the fall, and he generally used the term “predestination” in the favorable sense, as a synonym for “election,” while he gave the preference to the term “foreknowledge” to indicate reprobation: predestination, then, is what God does, namely that which is good; while “foreknowledge” refers to what man does, namely evil. In general, scholasticism, Roman Catholicism, and Lutheranism, accepted this interpretation of the term predestination."
(H Bavinck)

16

News Item3/3/08 2:18 PM
Jim Lincoln | Nebraska  Find all comments by Jim Lincoln
Playing the niche game,
"Comparing Bible Translations: Analysis
Issue #4: Theological Orientation
For what stated theological purpose was the translation or revision made, if any?"

http://www.propadeutic.com/faith/analysis4.html

As far as churches go, [URL=http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?sermonID=10505121650]]]The Church and Social Responsibility[/URL]

15

News Item3/3/08 2:10 PM
John | San Jose, CA  Find all comments by John
I suppose this version is a good counter to whichever one(s)
the prosperity-gospel types are reading and using.

I'll just stick to my old KJV and NASB, since they deal with
ALL issues of human misery...not just poverty and injustice!

14

News Item3/3/08 1:13 PM
Dr. Phil  Find all comments by Dr. Phil
Mike wrote:
Luther said: "It would certainly be a hard question, I allow–indeed, an insoluble one–if you sought to establish both the foreknowledge of God and the freedom of man together; for what is harder, yea, more impossible, than maintaining that contraries and contradictories do not clash?
I wonder why he saw "the foreknowledge of God and the freedom of man together" as contradictory? Foreknowledge does not require them to be.
Because Luther understood the Biblical meaning of "foreknowledge". It is not merely that God knows what will happen before hand, but he knows because he has determined what will happen beforehand. He has intimate knowledge of His people and their future.

"The said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?" Luke 1:34

13

News Item3/3/08 12:42 PM
Mike | New York  Find all comments by Mike
Luther said: "It would certainly be a hard question, I allow–indeed, an insoluble one–if you sought to establish both the foreknowledge of God and the freedom of man together; for what is harder, yea, more impossible, than maintaining that contraries and contradictories do not clash?

I wonder why he saw "the foreknowledge of God and the freedom of man together" as contradictory? Foreknowledge does not require them to be.

12

News Item3/3/08 12:22 PM
Dr. Phil  Find all comments by Dr. Phil
"It would certainly be a hard question, I allow–indeed, an insoluble one–if you sought to establish both the foreknowledge of God and the freedom of man together; for what is harder, yea, more impossible, than maintaining that contraries and contradictories do not clash? The apostle, therefore, is bridling the ungodly who take offense at his plain speaking, telling them they should realize that the Divine will is fulfilled by what to us is necessity, and that it is definitely established that no freedom or "free-will" is left them, but all things depend on the will of God alone" - Martin Luther, "The Bondage of The Will"

I wonder if N. T. Wright has considered the 2000+ verses that highlight God's sovereignty indicating that He is the ulitmate cause of evil. He does not sorrow over injustice nor poverty, but considers these to be necessary for His just purposes.

11

News Item3/3/08 12:19 PM
Neil | Tucson  Find all comments by Neil
I dare to speculate that little has really changed respecting Anglicanism, at least. Only now, the elites conspiring to keep the masses in their place (for their own good, of course) are Socialist technocrats & their clerical supporters like Wright, not Tory landowners of old who also used the Church for social control.

It's not as if there wasn't gov't poor relief in the old days, either.

10

News Item3/3/08 12:09 PM
Tony Borrelli | Suburban Philadelphia  Find all comments by Tony Borrelli
Certainly this is nonsense. However, turnabout is fair play. For centuries the rich and powerful have attempted to keep the poor and abused in check by assuring them that the Bible teaches man to obey authority and seek the heavenly reward, while church and state conspired together to use and abuse the masses. If these folks got the idea to manipulate Scripture for the left, it is only because they have seen it done so well by the right.
9
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