JD wrote: Peter, You wrote God explicitly states,over and over again, that there is now NO DIFFERENCE between Jew and Gentile. They are one body God wrote 1Co 10:32 Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:
Now I know you either have zero understanding or are deliberately obtuse. That text speaks of the church (Jews and Gentiles) Jews (those who hate Christ and persecute the church) and Gentiles (non-Jewish unbelievers). You answered none of the many texts I gave you. It is as was said earlier - you like to parade as someone who knows much but you are seriously steeped in ignorance. You know nothing of reformed theology. Your statements announce you have not read any of the reformers. As for he who calls himselft the Cure - I think of you as The Curse, as you seem to be cursed with perpetual dribble. I had hoped to find reasonaby intelligent debate on this site. All I find are blind zealots who talk and act like they were converted yesterday and now think they have a firm grasp on the truth. I have better things to do with my time than reason with children. So - Adios - happy arguing.
I listen regularly to great preachers on this website and have been edified, exhorted and blessed greatly. I have also enjoyed sparring with my brothers in Christ on various topics. May God be glorified in all of these things and may the name of Jesus Christ be praised forevermore.
JD wrote: I remind you that you referenced this passage without any consideration for the context. None of you men believe what the passage actually says about Israel and the purpose of God to glorify them in Zion. You do not believe that God has elected this nation and purposes to save everyone in it at some point in the future. You have misused this passage of Scripture.
How was it misused? It demonstrates that the bible teaches the absolute sovereignty of God in all things. But if you keep contrasting Old and New Testament, I fear you are heading into an almost Marcionite heresy. There are not two peoples of God. Nowhere does God promise to save all of the Jews. There may be some future Jewish revival, but that does not mean all Jews. God explicitly states,over and over again, that there is now NO DIFFERENCE between Jew and Gentile. They are one body (Eph 2:11-16), comprise one olive tree(Rom 11) and the blessings of Abraham fall upon those who are the true seed of Abraham, namely, the Christians (Rom 4:9-16; Gal 3:26-29). These things were foretold in the OT (Ps 87;Is 6;60:3). If the OT is only for the Jews then you may take no comfort from Ps 23 or Is 40:31.
Have a listen to a sermon called "Serving God is no easy thing" by Dr Alan Cairns - available on sermonaudio. It is part of a big series on prayer and is well worth listening to. They are not long sermons as they were only devotions at prayer meetings. Still, they run to 30 minutes or more. Great stuff!
God leaves man in their natural sinful state, or He chooses to lift them out of it. This is called election. We can't elect Him because by nature we hate Him - He is our enemy. So He must elect us. The question is, when and on what basis are we elected. The Scriptures clearly teach that election is unconditional and was before all time. Here is a small selection of the numerous texts that teach this truth. Deut 10:15; Ps 4:3; 65:4; Is 49:1; Jer 1:5; Mat 11:25; 11:27; 25:34; Jn 6:37; 6:65; 15:16; Acts 13:48; Rom 8:28; Eph 1:4, 11; Phil 1:29; II Thes 2:13; IJn 5:20. If these do not convince you, I assure you there are many, many more. And if you have any questions or objections, Dr Paul of Tarsus will be happy to answer them for you in Romans 9. For who are you , oh man, to reply against God?
Let's see if this is out of proportion and misinterpreted. The basis of all this is the understanding of sin, its effect (death, slavery) its spread (to everyone) its extent (to everything). The following are a selection of over 65 texts found in one article on this subject. Gen 2:17; 6:5; 8:21; Job 14:4; Ps 51:5; 53:2,3; 58:3; Ecc 9:3; Is 53:6; Jer 13:23; 17:9; Jn 3:18; 6:44; 8:34; Rom 1:28; 3:9; 5:12; 6:20; 8:7; ICor 1:18; 2:14; IICor 4:3; Eph 2:1,5; Col 2:13; IJn 5:19 Have a look at these, see if you can explain them away. There are quite a few more where those came from that say more or less the same thing. In your natural sinful state you are spiritually dead, a slave of sin, unable to do any good, hate God, love sin, cannot understand the things of God, cannot see the kingdom of God, are an enemy of God and are without hope. That is the Biblical doctrine of total inability or total depravity. It does not come from Augustine, or Calvin or anyone else. It comes from the Bible - clearly and unambiguously. Augustine, Calvin, Luther and co. only defined, defended and documented what they found in the Bible.
JD wrote: Hog J. Wash! There is a doctrine of the Holy Spirit in the Scriptures and to isolate one verse that refutes the whole body of doctrine in the Scriptures is a mishandling of the Word of God. If the OT saints were permenantly indwelt by the Spirit of God, then there would have been no reason for Christ to have died since reconciling with God could have been accomplished by simply believing.
Now I know your theology is of the make-it-up-as-you-go-along kind. You have just shown you are totally devoid of any Old Testament understanding. The Old Testament saints were saved by grace, through faith in the blood of the Lamb slain from before the foundation of the world as applied to them by the Spirit of God. Regeneration, sanctification and justification are not possible without the operation of the Spirit of God. When Nicodemus questioned Jesus about the rebirth, Jesus did NOT say, "This is a New Testament concept, let me explain it to you!" He said, "Are you THE teacher of Israel and do not know these things?" Why don't you read your Bible, along with some basic helpful guidelines to help you understand, because it is becoming increasingly obvious that you havebn't got the first clue what you are talking about.
Mike wrote: "Do you believe in a local visible church only or an invisible and universal church as well as a local visible church?" How there can be an invisible church? If there is an invisible church, it must be that the invisible church-goers aren't putting their faith into visible action.
I think one way to describe it is that the visible church is what you can see, ie, those who go to a building. The invisible church are the true believers, ie, those who are in Christ. You see that also in the Old Testament church in that not all Israel is the true Israel. The invisible church is that body of Christ which comprises all believers; Jew and Gentile, past, present and future.
Christ has entered upon His kingdom already (Col 1:13); He has disarmed Satan and the demons already (Col 2:15); and we are kings and priests with Him already (Rev 1:6); and just as He conquered, so we are to go forth, conquering in His name. He reigns now (Acts 2:29-36), above all creation (Eph 1:20-22), and is engaged now in putting all enemies under His feet (I Cor 15:25), until His kingdom becomes a great mountain, filling the whole earth (Dan 2:35, 45).
The opposite to predestination is not freedom, but meaninglesness; if the smallest details of our lives are not part of the plan of God, if they are not created facts with a divinely determined significance, then they can have no meaning at all. They cannot be working together for good. But the Christian who understands the truth of God's sovereignty is assured that nothing in his life is without meaning and purpose - that God has ordained all things for His glory and for our ultimate good. We can be secure in the knowledge that, since we have been called according to His purpose, all things in our life are a necessary aspect of that purpose. Luther said it well, "It is then fundamentally necessary and wholesome for Christians to know that God foreknows nothing contingently, but that He foresees, purposes, and does all things according to His own immutable, eternal and infallible will.For the Christian's chief and only comfort in adversity lies in knowing that God does not lie, but brings all things to pass immutably, and that His will cannot be resisted, altered or impeded.
I have to agree with Mr O'Clast so far. The Bible clearly teaches God's election before the foundation of the world. To say you are neither a Calvinist or an Arminian but just a Christian is the greatest red herring of them all. It is like saying you are neither man or woman, just a human being. This debate predates Dort and goes back at least as far as Augustine and Pelagius. It was also thrashed out by Erasmus and Luther. It was Erasmus who got the thrashing, as the Arminians did at Dort because for neither was there a Biblical leg to stand on. Only the consistent Calvinist strikes a Biblical balance between God's sovereignty and man's responsibility. Let me explain it this way. 100%v Divine + 100% human = 100%. The Bible is of Divine and human authorship for 100% each. They are simultaneous yet the Divine has the pre-eminence. Yet there is 1 seamless product. The same is true of Christ, who is both Divine and human for 100%. Likewise your salvation is 100% of God and from God. He begins it (Author) and ends it (Finisher). There is nothing you can add to your salvation. Yet you are 100% responsible. This is the Biblical balance and the hallmark in all orthodox theology. But the Bible also constantly stresses man's inability due to sin. That is unavoidable.
Lisa wrote: Im a post tribber, but found this versethis morning...Luke 21 vs 36 Watch ye therfore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.??? Sounds a bit pre-tribbish???
Not at all - it is very post-tribbish. He is talking about the fall of Jerusalem in AD 70
John - Jesus said of John the Baptist that "he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than him." Jesus also spoke of those who would sit at His right and His left hand.
Lisa - your dreams seem to me to be more fantasy than Biblical truth. In heaven we will worship the Triune God. You see the picture of it in Rev 4. There are four elements of worship portrayed there, two of them preparatory. You prepare for worship by having a vision of the holiness of God and submitting everything to His absolute rule. Then you worship by casting your crowns before Him and vocally acknowledging His worthiness of all glory and praise. That is the Biblical picture. Your picture, although pretty, is little more than teenage fantasy. Sorry.
terry evans wrote: Hi Peter What did you think of Paul Washers sermon How to get saved, on SA Im asking everyone to hear it and let me know there thoughts. Too many Gospels running around, don't you agree
Yes, I agree, but have not had a chance to listen to that particular sermon yet. Have heard several others of Washer's and have been suitable impressed. Thanks And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me and to whomsoever I will I give it (SEE PETE, SATAN Says: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it (THEN SATAN SAYS) If thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be thine Say your sorry
Say sorry? You mean you believe that father of all liars when he says he has the power and the authority? He has nothing more than that which Almighty God gives him. He is not an independent power. He can do no more than God allows him - see Job. Satan is no more than a tool in God's hands. Compare II Sam 24:1 and its parallel passage in I Chron 21:1.
The time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; and they will turn their ears away from the truth and be turned aside to fables (2Tim 3,4). Fables are beautiful stories like the one about the two brothers with names like Sound Doctrine and Discernment. They are beautiful man-made stories, designed to sound impressive but have no Biblical content or truth in them. The days of people preferring fables to truth are here now. The truth hurts! Fables are friendly and sweet and soothing. But God's word tells us to be discerning AND to have pure doctrine. Anything which departs from pure doctrine is heresy - even if it is wrapped up in a beautiful fable. Please don't place discernment and doctrine into opposition, for they are two sides of the same coin and can only exist side by side.
Now I know why you Arminian Dispensationalists are such scared little fear mongerers. You really do believe that Satan is ruling and that half-mighty God is powerless to do anything about it right now. Wow - I am so sorry for you. The God of my Bible does whatever He pleases and no one (not even that monkey-on-a-leash Satan) can ask Him, "What are You doing?" The God of my Bible "has sat His King on His holy hill in Zion." The Jesus of my Bible has all power and auhority and this is why He could give the great commission. The best your god can do is try to get those who were clever enough to "make a decision for Jesus" out of this world and into safety before it all goes totally out of his control. What a miserable form of Christianity you have been taught!
I don't know you so can't tell whether sarcasm becomes you. I mean read the Bible without Scofield blinkers. Understand, for example, that it is nonsensical to apply past prophecies about Israel's restoration which have clearly been fulfilled and apply them to the future. Understand that when John writes to comfort the persecuted church in Revelation it is nonsensical to think that what he writes does not apply to them but to 2000 years later - and can not be deciphered or understood till Scofield writes his bestseller. The great tribulation Jesus referred to in Matthew 24 is not a future event, but was fulfilled in AD 70. The Bible clearly teaches in Ephesians 2 and Romans 11 that Israel and the Church now comprise one body - throwing the whole dispensational rationale of prophetic interpretation into the realm of the ridiculous. We are in the milleniun now - Jesus is reigning now. Otherwise His statement, "ALL authority HAS BEEN given to Me, in heaven and on earth" becomes empty and meaningless. When He returns at the end of time it is not to reign on earth in Jerusalem (what a demotion that would be, from King of heaven and earth to king of small city in small sandpit country) but to consummate the end of all things.
The word "Rapture" does not even appear in Scripture. The Bible talks about the "Parousia" - the coming of the Bridgroom. The picture is the groom being escorted to the wedding feast. It has nothing to do with not needing an escort because you can fly - but has to do with a joyful, triumphant procession. There is no such thing as a secret rapture. And if you read carefully the words of Christ concerning the "Great Tribulation" you will see this refers to the siege and destruction of Jersualem in AD 70 and not to the end of all time. Forget Scofield's lying nonsense and read the Word my friend.
That would have to be - without a doubt - the dumbest thing and lamest argument I have ever heard. A proof text "proves" the theology or the point of doctrine. We know there is a Trinity because of the Biblical texts which prove this. The Word of God can only speak to you that which it proves. Unless you are someone who believes that a verse in the Bible can have one meaning for you and another meaning for me - in which case it is a waste of time discussing the Bible with you.