Phil Casamento wrote: @James Thomas. I say this out of love: You are mistaken. The law is the righteousness of God and it is good and holy. Wrath comes upon us for disobedience, that is not to say that the law is wrath. Rather wrath is consequence for not fulfilling all righteousness. Christ fulfilled all righteousness for his people and by grace gives us his righteousness. The law was given for transgression to show us our sinfulness and God's utter holiness, which thereby points us to Jesus Christ the Righteous. Read Roman's 6,7, and 8 for a fuller understanding of the purpose of God's law. And also Galatians 3.
I'm not trying to interject myself but I'm confused by your post. You first said the law is the righteousness of God. Then, by grace we are given his righteousness. And finally, Jesus Christ the Righteous.
So is our risen Lord, Jesus Christ, the law? That seems to be the only conclusion that can be drawn from your comment.
Dr. Tim wrote: The biblical order of events is pre-trib rapture, seven-year tribulation WITHOUT the saints who got saved prior to the rapture, second coming of Christ, millennial reign, great white throne judgment, eternity.
Two very important clues are given; the voice of the archangel and the last trumpet sound.
Michael is the archangel and spoken of in Daniel 12:1 **after** the 70th week aka tribulation has concluded.
Upon the last (seventh) trumpet sounding "our Lord, and his Christ shall reign for ever and ever" ..... not a mere 1,000 years. (Rev 11:15)
If you are looking for the rapture Paul spoke of, it comes after the 1,000 year reign of Christ and the 70th week tribulation when Satan is loosed.... Gog & Magog (Rev 20:7-10).
May want to closely examine Rev 20:9.... "And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city" Seems like the saints were not raptured before the 70th week but were waiting on the Lord in hope for the resurrection of the just and unjust.
I'm not one to buy into conspiracy theories but there is absolutely no logical basis for the panic and hysteria this virus has created. I can only conclude that the liberal Democrats, coupled with the liberal media, has intentionally encouraged the panic for political ends. Sadly, it has worked probably much better than they had hoped for and now they are legislating free stuff to soften the economic impact, they have likely created themselves, to make themselves appear to be the saviors. The panic is so widespread and complete that even the POTUS and Republicans can't poo-poo the hysteria and call for reason but must go along for fear of losing support and confidence. Very convenient in an election year when nothing else the Democrats have tried to gain the political upper hand has worked these past 3+ years.
Mike wrote: "WHO Declares Coronavirus Outbreak a Global Public Health Emergency" Oh oh. Looks like we'll need a global public health solution. 1. Instill abundance of fear worldwide. Use media to report every sickness as probable Covid 19. 2. Wait for panic buying at grocery stores. 3. Wait until the "public" demands solution to shortages and disease. 4. Drag fear and anger on through the US election. Use quarantine as much as possible. 5. Await emotional US electorate to remove Trump, install any Democrat to save us. 6. Continue with globalist one-world agenda, now that temporary Orange-man thorn in its side is removed. Swamp critters all over the world rejoice. 7. Covid 19 now burns itself out, which it would have done anyway, in its reality as a disease, and certainly in its usefulness as a tool. 8. Wait for Jim/Lincoln to once again independently declare he doesn't criticize sitting presidents.
Can't allow a crisis go to waste especially during an election cycle. And if it doesn't rise to the level of a crisis, well, that can be fixed too.
John for JESUS wrote: The point being made with Romans 13:11 was that â€śwe believedâ€ť and it was okay. Also, in John 9:35-38 the man says â€śI believeâ€ť. I wanted you to see that there is nothing wrong with saying â€śI believedâ€ť as it is used in scripture without it being considered a sin. If someone were to ask why I was saved, it is because I believed and God saved me.
Of course it's okay to say I/we believed. The disagreement comes from the means by which you claim to believe.
Listen J4J, my sole purpose of challenging you was to learn what was at the bottom of your system of belief. After much coaxing we finally got there. I get it. There really is no need to continue launching verses in defense of that as it will change nothing for either of us. Your entire system of belief stands on a completely different foundation than mine.
John for JESUS wrote: 1) In all fairness, there is no other way to state it. It was â€śIâ€ť who believed, not God for me, otherwise I would of said He believed for me and not for others...
2) And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed. â€â€Romansâ€¬ â€13:11
Is it okay to say â€śweâ€ť believed? That is the plural of â€śIâ€ť. Was Paul not giving God glory for their salvation?! They were the ones who believed, while God was the one who saved them.
1) You present a false dichotomy which I trust you understand is an insult to my intelligence and isn't deserving of a reasoned reply.
2) Romans 13:11... most would say that they are saved upon receiving the HS. Paul received the HS when Ananias laid hands on him well before he penned the letter to the Romans yet he is saying here that he and the Romans had not yet been saved but it was nearer than when they first believed. So can you explain what Paul and the Romans would be saved from and when? And can you see that since "By grace are ye saved" that Paul and the Romans were not yet under grace? And if not under grace, what? If not you shouldn't be quoting texts that you don't even understand to defend your false belief system.
John for JESUS wrote: 1) I also quoted Romans 2:15. 2) Is that a reference to Logos? 3) I believed and they didnâ€™t. The Bible gives examples of why people reject Him in general and sometimes specifically. However, it doesnâ€™t say as much about why people believe except to say it is out of love. It is appreciation and gratitude for what Jesus did for us.
2) Yes, the English word logic is derived from the Greek word Logos. The bible interchanges Logos with Theos and Theos with Agape. All are one and the same. That's the wisdom of God but if you want to go with the wisdom of man, definitely go with logic.
3) "I" ...... I thought so. Even the RCC and most Arminians try to give a little honor to God with their false doctrine of prevenient grace. But not J4J.
So everyone knows what your reply means, you said "the ability to believe is given us from birth".
I asked "All mankind or ???"
To which you replied "Yes, all mankind."
Well.... that is interesting. And you apparently see that view supported by Acts 17:26-30.
Not wanting to put words in your mouth but may I assume this ability to believe unto justification of life is what most would call reason? Logic?
No matter because it was never my intent to convince you. I just wanted to get to the bottom of what you believe because after all these years you never really made it known. But I will leave you with this:
1 Cor 4:7 For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?
Think on that, J4J, and then perhaps answer one more question, if you would. If all mankind receives the ability to believe unto justification of life at birth, what makes you differ from those who reject the gospel?
John for JESUS wrote: You are right, thatâ€™s why I am okay if people want to say that faith is a gift, even if that is not what Ephesians 2 is saying because ultimately the ability to believe is given us from birth and to whom we believe in is Himself a gift in that God didnâ€™t have to send His Son, but He did.
Perhaps you put this reply together in haste but I'm not quite understanding. I have to get busy on other things and will not be able to look in till this evening. Whenever you have time could you maybe elaborate a bit more so I understand what you mean by "the ability to believe is given us from birth". All mankind or ???
John for JESUS wrote: Lurker... â€śSo then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.â€ť â€â€Romansâ€¬ â€10:17â€¬
We receive the Holy Spirit by faith and without the Holy Spirit we do not belong to Christ. How can someone be â€śelectâ€ť and not even belong to Christ?! Jesus is the object of our faith. Faith is the obedient act of repentance from sins and trusting in Jesus for our salvation.
It wasn't quite the direct answer I was hoping for but I'll work with the text you cited.
Faith comes by hearing.
Hearing comes by the word (Logos) of God.
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word [Logos], and the Word [Logos] was with God, **and the Word [Logos] was God.**
So if one is able to hear, that hearing is by God (Logos). And if one has faith, that faith comes by hearing which is by God.
I believe we have finally gotten to the bottom of the matter, J4J. It is God who is first cause as He gives eyes to see, ears to hear and a heart to perceive to whom He chooses and without the ability to hear, no one has faith. That is, unless you can demonstrate that I have not faithfully exegeted your prooftext.
John for JESUS wrote: â€śAnd the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.â€ť â€â€Galatiansâ€¬ â€3:8â€¬ God is the Justifier of those who believe.
Thanks, J4J. I agree completely.
But we have yet to get all the way to the bottom of the matter.
Paul plainly says we are justified by faith. From whence comes that faith; all of God, all of man or something else? The answer to that will determine first cause of justification unto life. Please quote whatever scripture proofs you believe demonstrates your answer.
John for JESUS wrote: 1) I believe I have. The ability to want to believe is created within sinners from birth. Through natural revelation and by God sovereignly placing them in the time and place they are, so that they should seek Him. God has done nothing but help sinners to become saved because He loves the whole world and doesnâ€™t take pleasure in the death of sinners. 2) God has decided to make Israel His elect nation to whom the promises belong and Gentiles have been grafted in for a time so that they may inherit the promises through faith. 3) I think I just did. The Jews are the elect and others are grafted in. All are elect who are in Christ.
Okay J4J. Perhaps I wasn't very clear and for that I apologize. So I'll try again.
Who/what is the first cause of justification unto life for everyone who believes? Is it God's choice, man's decision or something else?
I'm asking for biblical proofs, as many as you want, to establish your answer with your exposition to follow, if you want. And I'd hope you'd gather your proofs from the new covenant age writings of the bible.
John for JESUS wrote: People accusing me of being an Arminian donâ€™t know what Jacob Arminius believed. He believed, like Calvin, that people had to be enlightened by the Holy Spirit in order to believe. He believed the Holy Spirit then allowed people to decide for themselves if they wanted to believe in Jesus or not. Calvinism teaches the Holy Spirit makes you believe without exception. So you see, they are both wrong! The biblical view is that the preaching of the gospel enables people to believe should they want too. The salvation of the sinner is completely dependent on what Jesus has done for them and is received by faith.
I will likely regret getting involved in yet another topic discussion but... in broad terms I can agree with what you said with one exception. But, you have yet to descend to the bottom step of your system of belief and establish: "should they want to".
You have man, not God, determining who is elect (called) and who is not. You have man ultimately in charge of his eternal fate. It is your doctrine of election which differs from those of us you contend with.
So I'm challenging you to make a biblical argument for your version of election so we may understand how we err.
John UK wrote: Hi Lurker, But there is another faith (not saving faith) which is a gift of the Spirit. And we know that the Spirit gives the gifts to different people that all may profit and that all may be important to the assembly of Christians. This gift of faith is mentioned in 1 Cor 12:9 and Paul mentions it again in 1 Cor 13:2 as having "all faith that could move a mountain".
I looked up the verses you mentioned and see what you mean. We both know that faith's initial role in the unconverted is to justification of life. But beyond that surely faith doesn't just lie dormant but must serve other purposes that bring glory to God which I believe is what you are getting at. I don't have a strong opinion about the matter but will bear it in mind as I continue personal study.
John for JESUS wrote: The salvation which God gave them and results in eternal life is the gift of God.
J4J, I have no problem with that. That's exactly what I said..... In Eph 2:8, "that" and "it" refers to everything stated before it. It's all part of the package of salvation as detailed by Paul. Glad we finally agree.
John UK wrote: 1) Lurker, your post of 2/21/2020 10:08PM was a great blessing to me, so I render you thanks for taking the time to think about it and draw conclusions.
2) Tell me bro, do you think there is a difference between the faith which comes as a fruit of the Spirit, and the faith which is a gift of the Spirit?
1`) Your welcome, John, and thanks for saying so.
2) Honestly I haven't really considered it before. I guess I've always believed faith is faith and don't see a reason to believe otherwise. But if you have some thoughts I'd be willing to listen.
John for JESUS wrote: Thatâ€™s exactly my point! The Gentiles hadnâ€™t entered eternal life yet. Yet it was still something they possessed and could look forward too, just like Paul. It was the only thing in Eph 2:8 that was not finished.
I'm sorry, J4J, but eternal life is not mentioned in Eph 2:8-9.
Upon further research into the text and consulting trusted commentators, I'm of the persuasion that "that" refers to everything preceding it including faith.... the mechanics of salvation. Greek linguistics seems to demand it be understood that way. And context must be considered as well, especially being dead in sin before God quickened to life in mercy.
John for JESUS wrote: 1) A fruit of the Spirit is to trust God more. It doesnâ€™t mean people are unable to believe in Jesus when confronted with the gospel.
2) By Godâ€™s grace we receive eternal life through faith. The salvation we receive is not because of anything we did, but because of Jesus Christ. Therefore there is nothing to boast about! As I explained earlier, grace was already bestowed upon the Gentiles in Ephesians and they already believed, the only thing left that could have been considered present tense was their salvation. Having been saved, they had not yet entered into eternal life. Eternal life is the gift of God.
2) If that be so then poor Paul never received the gift of God. You see, J4J, Paul never claimed eternal life as a present possession but looked forward to it in hope.
Titus 1:1-2 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness; In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began.
Perhaps Paul was a one off...
Jude 1:21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
Earlier I said I'd post some thoughts regarding the gift of God. Needless to say that anything good in the life of a Christian can be thought of as a gift from God. That goes without saying. But the bible is very specific concerning the gift of God:
Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive **the gift of the Holy Ghost.**
That's it! Every good thing in our lives flows from the indwelling Holy Spirit, the fountain of living waters. Every perceived gift flows from the Holy Spirit. Even things that some perceive as originating within themselves flows from the Holy Spirit as Paul wrote:
Gal 5:22-23 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, **faith**, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
There are simply too many good things written about faith to foolishly presume it originates from within a carnal, unregenerate mind unto justification of life (Rom 5:16-18). No amount of wrangling with Ephesians 2:8-9 will accomplish anything until first the gift of God is recognized and that all good fruit proceeds from the indwelling Holy Spirit..... including faith.
B. McCausland wrote: Apologies accepted, Lurker. IMHO oftimes there is excesive fuss made of things which are plain, say things whose main sense is obvious, and the grieving is that sometimes man is trying to be wiser than God, or try to play 'god', or simply speculate upon things which are not totally given but inferred throughout the revelation of Scripture. It is my personal understanding that often we should admit that the words of Christ: "...it is not given unto you to know ... " should be our contented lot. My apologies if you, and/or others here differ on this, being then cause for misunderstanding, with the potential to develope into idle contempt which is not my intend. Again my apologies if this if misconstrued in any other way than the reason for which it is shared. Regards
I was blessed by your comment and want you to know that. Far too many discussions go bad because of misunderstandings and frustration which lead to personal attacks. I know I have been guilty of the same in the past and still struggle with it. I remember many such instances with you personally and for that I apologize too. I trust you will forgive me.
. . .
I want to address the matter of God's gift but it will have to wait till later.
John for JESUS wrote: I keep hearing that salvation isnâ€™t even in the verse, then what does the word â€śsavedâ€ť mean? The Gentile believers received salvation by grace, through faith! That salvation they received was not because of anything they did to earn it, it is the gift of God. Grace was what they were shown and faith is what they had in order to be saved, those things were in the past for them. However, the gift of God is what was happening right now. Whatever you think â€śitâ€ť is must be something that was still considered the gift of God. Grace was already shown and faith was already something they had in order to be saved. The only thing current tense would be their salvation, which was still their gift from God.â€¬
I believe J4J's post demonstrates much better than I could explain what happens when the rules of grammar are abandoned for a complex text such as Eph 2:8. Personal bias is free to draw out a meaning contrary to the Author's intent.
Thanks for the clarification and accept my apology for misunderstanding.
. . .
Rom 5:15 the grace of God, and the gift **by** grace..
Rom 5:16 the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith...