Mike wrote: Also unfortunately James, Jim/Lincoln believes whatever the ever-changing narrative tells him to believe. Otherwise he himself is a generator of the narrative. I still prefer to think he's naive, rather than corrupt. Maybe I'm naive.
If only we could send the true narrative through CNN we would have a chance because then he'd believe it. But the last time truth came from CNN we were bombing Iraq.
DKH wrote: the EC believed faith in Christ wasnâ€™t faith without being accompanied by obiedience to him.
What then is biblical Obedience?
16 For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering. 17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.
David would have given had it been required but the only requirment is a broken and contrite heart. Why?
Psalm 107:21 Oh that men would praise the LORD for his goodness, and for his wonderful works to the children of men! 22 And let them sacrifice the sacrifices of thanksgiving, and declare his works with rejoicing.
So that we may declare his works and not our own.
Psalm 9:16 ...the wicked is snared in the work of his own hands.
The simplicity which is in Christ is so simple a child can understand it. Just give up trying to be good enough and donâ€™t do this or that but just trust, believe, revere and love the One who was and is good enough. Thatâ€™s all He has ever required of His people. Just accept His free gift of righteousness and be thankful. But, just like in the days of the Jews, no, that isnâ€™t good enough. You must do this and that, all self righteousness which God hates
DKH wrote: But maybe you dont care. Its just strange that your theology was mostly nonexistent till the 5th century.
I read through your posts again. Seems to me, Straw man argument and Ad hominem are not terms a typical 19 year old uses unless your cutting your teeth on how to debate. But you ought to take note. You did both in your reply.
Here's what Paul teaches on obedience.
2 Cor 10 5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
That means take it to the knowledge of God (Scripture) and not a link that will teach us from a denominational website you think has all the answers.
6 And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled. ******7 Do ye look on things after the outward appearance? *******
To me, seems like that's part of what has been taught to you with the repetition of the early church thing. Maybe you can give a demonstration of what the difference is between believers then and now.
DKH wrote: 1. So seriously, in fact, that we should actually obey what He commanded us.
2. By early Church, I mean the first three centuries of Christianity before most of the Church's theology radically changed and descended into Catholicism.
1.I agree, and thankfully the apostle John summed it up for us here.
1 John 3:23 and this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
2. The "ekklesia" theology has never descended into RC theology. The two are and have always been the antithesis of one another, that being the righeousness of God alone versus self righteous works of the law. Paul explains it in detail in Romans 10. Also you seem to be eliminating the 1000 year stretch in which Christians in Constantinople housed the Greek manuscripts The ekklesia held to them through the dark ages and not the RC theology. If your sources of information are not providing this then your being shortchanged.
DKH wrote: As for the reformation. I think its very narrow minded to assume Reformed and Catholicism are the only ways to view the Bible. The early Church had a completely different view of Christianity (a good subject to research). The Reformation had many positive aspects including the work with the Bible. But it was not all good. I have direct ancestors who were murdered by both Catholics and Reformers.
I'm sorry to hear that about your ancestors DKH and what you said helps me understand better on your thoughts on the reformers. I appreciate you sharing something that is obviously very sensitive and understandably so. I saw Lurker made an offer to you earlier today. If I were you, I'd see what he had to say. You have nothing to lose by hearing him out. Take care.
John UK wrote: Aha! I do not think DKH has an affinity with the Reformation. Either that, or he is not explaining himself very well. What think ye? We will bear fruit of some sort. It will either be bad fruit (from our own heart - Jeremiah 17:9) or good fruit (from the indwelling Spirit - Galatians 5:22-23).
From what I've seen, I'm thinking DKH has simply been misguided like we all have at one time or another in our lives John, which is why I'm willing to help if I can. That's just my take. I should have addressed him in my posts earlier but I got ahead of myself and didn't, so thanks for asking who I was speaking to.
As far as the fruit. Yes, It's only as good as the source.
Rom 4:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works...
Psalm 32:2 Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.
Rom 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
There it is.....Abraham did no work...but believed God. And we also see the relationship of Faith and righteousness as well. They are one in the same. Which is why Paul concludes:
Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: Romans 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
Biblical faith is never dead. Faith (love of God) is life....the life of the soul. Faith is a possession (a thing, feminine gender), not an action (verb) and its outworking is the fulfilling of Love God (Deut 6:5). Faith is a fruit(work) of the spirit as mentioned in Gal 5:22. Faith flows from the indwelling Holy Spirit which is th
Paul said the persuasion they (Galatians) were being exposed to did not come from Him that calleth you (Gal. 5:8), it was coming from the brood of vipers (Matt.23:33) aka Jews who taught lies of traditions and works of self righteousness which God did not teach nor asked for. (Isa. 1-11,12)
Certain men of James were trying their best to entangle true believers back into works of self righteousness (Gal. 5:1) which is the yoke of bondage and believers were instructed not to be persuaded by them.
The Jews had fed deceit to true believers for years and were instructed to renew their minds from the mind of Christ which they had (1 Cor. 2:16) and John validated in his letter.
1 John 1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which *we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life*
When we Prove all things and hold fast that which is good, there's only one source. The fruit of the Spirit.
Eph 5:22 For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth 10 Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord. 11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.
Here's another piece. In considering the experiences of Linacre and Colet, the Erasmus was so moved to correct the corrupt Latin Vulgate, that in 1516, he published a Greek-Latin Parallel New Testament. The Latin part was not the corrupt Vulgate, but his own fresh rendering of the text from the more accurate and reliable Greek manuscripts which arrived from Constantinople after a 1000 year stay which Luther and Tyndale used to create German and English bibles.
Before 1500, Thomas Linacre, decided to learn Greek. After reading the Gospels in Greek, and comparing it to the Latin Vulgate, he wrote in his diary, â€śEither this (the original Greek) is not the Gospelâ€¦ or we are not Christians.â€ť The Latin had become so corrupt that it no longer even preserved the message of the Gospel.
That is just one testimony of what the reformation is about. Your extremely narrow and generalized view is not the true picture. but only contains the unfortunate actions of some, therefore missing the big picture. Here's another.
In 1496, John Colet, another Oxford professor and the son of the Mayor of London, started reading the New Testament in Greek and translating it into English for his students at Oxford, and later for the public at Saint Paulâ€™s Cathedral in London. The people were so hungry to hear the Word of God in a language they could understand, that within six months there were 20,000 people packed in the church and at least that many outside trying to get in!
DKH, in reading through your comments, I'm not sure exactly what position you are defending. Lumping in Reformers along with the RC they were called out of was shocking but Your understanding of the reformation may be just lacking some major details. If I recall your 19 years old and I can tell your eager, but there is a big hiccup on your understanding on what the fruit of the spirit actually is.
DkH if you feel you can lose your salvation. It follows, then, that you also feel you have to *do something* as you said DKH, to keep your salvation. That's not correct.
The Father gave the Son a commission:
John 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
Here's what Jude had to say:
Jude 1:24-15 Now unto *him that is able to keep you from falling*, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.
The Son is charged with the job of preserving that which belonged to the Father and was given to the Son to redeem in time. Jude says He is able. I agree and I pray that you may too one day.
DKH said, "The Gospel got corrupted when the Church married the state in the 4th century and gave birth to Catholic church. The Catholics made salvation self centered (its all about our salvation). The Reformers simply evolved on this same philosophy but made the steps to get salvation simpler. We need to get back to Christ centered Christianity!"
Something to consider DKH, The RC was not a new start up but was simply the continuation of the evil man made organization and their ways which Paul was once a part of. The RC is nothing more than the progeny of the harlot and they carry on that lie to this day. FAITH + works.
Also, Here's another mention of Faith in Acts. It is the sole means God uses for purification, not man made cisterns (Jer. 2:13) and their idols which is figuratively compared to money in Psalm 115:4
Acts 15:8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; 9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
DKH wrote: unbiblical ideas from the reformers (faith alone).
Faith alone is not unbiblical and it was not just Paul who spoke on it.
Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Paul teaches what The law of Faith is but it permeates the entire Bible from cover to cover.
Hebrews chapter 11.
Jude 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the **faith which was once delivered unto the saints.**
Past tense. Faith has been delivered. Given. A gift.
Here's a OT prophecy that speaks regarding faith or lack thereof which was due to what Jer. 2:13 says.
Deut 33:20 And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith.
Here is what David had to say.
Psalm 51:16 For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering.
17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.