Michael Hranek wrote:
Post 3
Before I write more let me do my best to write what I mean when I am talking about DECEPTION.
To me the primary meaning of the word “DECEIVE” is to convince someone to believe what is NOT true as though it were true; to mislead, to lead astray.
BUT that is only part of it as DECEPTION can also mean to persuade, to intimidate, TO BEWITCH someone into doing what they know is wrong

Matt 24:24 "For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, ***IF IT WERE POSSIBLE***if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect."

It would appear that Jesus Himself describes the "deception" of the elect as impossible.

Perhaps "deception" is not quite the major problem you suggest - at least in the case of the true elect Christians.

False religions and doctrines (deceiving) are a problem but NOT for those whom the Holy Spirit will guide! John 16:13.

Mike wrote:
Ed..... false beliefs are devil-designed

I think the answer could be NO!

This being the case then the multi-religions and multi-doctrines would be a kind of blitzkreig temptation on all that enter through church doors.

Whereas if he knew exactly who the elect were he could have a more perceptable strategy aimed specifically at the "True" church and doctrine.

Also it may be a part of God's protection of the True church to prevent the devil's concentration upon them. Spreading the load as it were and forcing the enemy to generalise his efforts.

The visible church taken ecumenically then would be a form of protection by numerical size.

Concentrating specifically upon the Remnant the devil would not need to waste time and resources upon the false churches, doctrines, herecies, cults and fallacies which prevail in what falls under the title of church, faith or religion today.

Mike wrote:
a] Do they not receive the truth because they are not elected,

b] or have they by false beliefs been confounded and confused away from the Lord and the truth which can set them free?

c] if they are not elect, there is little that any false beliefs could do to make them more non-elect.

d] So what's the point?

d] The situation of the unbeliever/unsaved/non- elect, is that they are in false believe through unbelief (of truth) and therefore susceptible to Satans lies and deceit.

An example of this is evolution compared with the truth of creation.
By faith we know the truth.

In regard to the current discussion a question.....

Does Satan KNOW who the elect are?

John UK wrote:
The word LOST in the first verse does not mean all lost souls in the world, simply because the gospel is not hidden from every man. It is not hidden from you is it? Nor from me neither. So it means those who ultimately are lost

Mike wrote:
Who is it the devil blinds the minds of? "Them which believe not." Not the other way round. They are not blinded so they cannot believe, but because they already do not. They are then hardened in unbelief

John UK wrote:
I still can't figure out why the devil seeks to 'blind mens minds' when there really is not much point, as they are already blind (dead) due to their sin. Any ideas bro? Or bro Mike?

So have a heart John, the devil is a busy lad in the pulpit, pew and publications of the religious. This business of keeping the unbeliever in darkness and confusion is an endless task. Look how long it took Satan to get the scientists to believe in and preach the religion of evolution.

How can the gospel be hidden as Paul states here?
The Bible is there to be read.
John UK tells us that all you have to do is HEAR?
Is it then hid from our ears? All our senses?

Note to whom the accusation is aimed "them that are lost"
NOT those who dont listen, or those who dont come to church, or those who cant listen or see.

But Paul identifies a specific group of people called "the lost"
So did they hear and not understand?
Did they see and could not comprehend?
Or did they never come within earshot or sight of Bible teaching anyway?
Probably all of the above.

HEARING Bible verses explained by a preacher does NOT convict the heart of a sinner.

ONLY those chosen by GOD for that purpose, indwelt by the Holy Spirit, can HEAR in an active way to respond positively to His calling.
Born again disciples of Christ are effectively called and that calling requires the work of the Spirit in them before they can even HEAR the call itself. Therefore in that sense hearing is also a work of the Spirit.

John UK wrote:
HA!
GREAT ANSWER
Hyperturnips of the world unite! And praise the Lord for his great love and compassion to sinners without ears!
Ere ere!

John UK wrote:
1] So those who comprise a non-reformed church are all born again, therefore elect of God

2] "Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."

3] Say, you're not one of those hypermen are you?

4] Have a read:

What religion did you say you were from?

2] Can a deaf person be saved John?
Or does he have to be dragged by the ears also?

3] "hyperman"? - John if I was a Hyper-calvinist, to which you allude, then I wouldn't be speaking to you since you are outwith their privy circle.

4] Iv'e read Calvin many times! But your snag on this goad John is that you want to exclude the work of the Holy Spirit and God's gift of Faith.

Your not one of these hyper-arminian types are you.

[URL=http://www.apuritansmind.com/Arminianism/Arminianism.htm]]]John read the truth about Arminian Heresy[/URL]

Mike wrote:
I think long as "correct" is modified by "politically," no conclusion can be drawn other than some think politics is the proper source for determining behavior and expression. Which of course is nonsensical if you think about it. Thus the best response to pc is to ridicule and laugh at it.

John UK wrote:
1] Ok so you are a thirteen year old

2] How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not HEARD?

3] #1 The word 'church' means the "called out ones". A non-reformed church is

4] #2 The method God employs is the preaching of the gospel, the hearing of the gospel, the believing of the gospel

2] The vital part of the Rom 10 verses you quote is "whom they have not believed" (R) "BELIEVED". - Now John does every single person who has ever attended a church "BELIEVE unto salvation?" - Let me help you a little here - the answer is NO! EG Matt 7:21 or the churches in Rev. 2/3. Then there is false teachers/professors etc etc

3] εκκλεσια or church specifically means called out to a religious meeting. But we won't quibble over that shall we.

4] "Hearing" is only of use to those elect who have the Holy Spirit (indwelling) working on their heart.
As Jesus points out many hear but fail to understand Mark 4:12.

John UK wrote:
1] Non-reformed churches are people who have been born of the Spirit but who do not hold reformed position.

2] God CANNOT bless the gospel to a sinner's heart unless the sinner HEARS the gospel. And if you don't believe THAT, please explain how God does that.

2] The method God employs is the Holy Spirit working in the HEART of the sinner.

Mike wrote:
Even the above definition of political correctness is politically correct.
The proper definition should be:
"A narrow and demanding view of what is correct thinking and behavior, wrought by the politics and moral lack of the one demanding it."

"The avoidance of forms of expression or action that are perceived to exclude marginalize or insult groups of people who are socially disadvantaged or discrimminated against"

John UK wrote:
#1 No ad hominem there, pal. "If you are able to" simply means "only if you agree" with what I said. If you disagreed, then of course you would not be able to agree, and you would "not be able to". See?
#2 You're not thinking are you? The "elect of God" are being saved mainly in non-reformed churches or through non-reformed evangelists. Why? Because they are more active in spreading the word, even though it be a faulty word. But the gospel is still there, the power of God!

This implies that I cannot perceive the truth - unless I agree with you.

2] The elect saved by non-reformed churches??? What like the RCC? JW's? Anglican/Episcopalian abomination? Liberals?

This then suggests that God uses these means over HIS TRUE CHURCH???

Lance Eccles wrote:
The term "political correctness" must have taken on some fresh nuances of meaning since I last checked.

John Yurich USA wrote:
Are you stating that Jesus considers the Bible readings and prayers to Him during Mass to be blasphemous? Why would Jesus consider the Bible readings and prayers to Him to be blasphemous?

John UK wrote:
1] Re-read my post, and then tell me that what I have written is not true. If you are able to do that, of course.

2] Besides which, if "the church don't work", what makes you think they're elect?

2] Your stated theme in your previous post was; 'that the Reformed Church was in disobedience to God in not evangelising' that being so the implication of your post is that the elect were not being brought to Christ, because of church failure.

However that would appear to factor out God and His grace and power in saving the elect. Is God restricted without a "large" church? Your post was a presumed generalisation in that you cannot perceive exactly what God is doing right at these precise times in history.

John UK wrote:
One of the main reasons for this is because in general, the reformed churches are preaching hundreds of thousands of gospel messages and teaching messages to the saints only, instead of going out into the world and telling sinners that JESUS SAVES!
If God "now commandeth all men everywhere TO REPENT", is it not our responsibility to tell all men that? Instead, most churches allow non-reformed people to win souls to Christ, and then hope that these converts will get fed up with the teaching they get, and seek out a more biblical church. And then when they do, they lose all their zeal for Christ and the gospel because most of the reformed churches are fast asleep in Zion.