John UK wrote:
What a wonderful delight to see you posting again bro! And glad to hear that you are so busy working both in secular and spiritual employment.
May our Lord bless all your efforts in his name, and prosper the fellowship in these dark and difficult days.
...

Glad to know you've not been put off by all the Pseudos on SA! Do they still quote more of the confessions than they do the Scriptures? Speaks volumes, doesn't it!

Desperate times alright John. New job, short term contract(but renewable assuming work is there to do), low pay, long hours, long distance. Between churches and cannot therefore be involved in the Lord's work Cannot even read and study as before. Seeking the Lord's help!

How are things in the UK? See you have your own website Like the paintings.

My new job is going to keep me extremely busy, so will only post here infrequently.

John UK, are you still suffering as a heretic? Cheer up friend. The apostle Paul suffered the same.

For all the pseudo-calvs who like trumpeting their priviledge and scorning all else, you might learn a thing or 2 from this well written and balanced article:

[url=http://www.gracegems.org/SERMONS2/practical_wisdom_for_calvinists.htm]]] Practical Wisdom for Calvinists by Darryl Erkel[/url]

Bible only wrote:
Well hello C.U.
I am supposed to be you, so what are you doing appearing on SA this evening?

Your moniker is unfortunate, because shortened it would read B.O.

I read your earlier posts and they were on target.

Perhaps the reason they identify you as me is because they think that only one person in all the world holds to what I hold to, which to them is heresy! My sadness is that they do not even recognise that they are pseudo-calvs - not in the Reformation tradition at all.

Try and tie them down to the Bible and they will struggle.

Try and get to know John UK and a few others, if you do not know them already - like Mike NY, Michael H and Candle Lit. They are a breath of fresh air. Don't get too upset by DJC49- he is OK if a little rough hewn. He does take the Bible seriously, and makes many good points.

Oh well, this will be my last post for some time.

G'night all, and Lord bless.
_____________________

Michael H

Good to catch you Bro! I shall miss you too, and your zeal for the gospel. Don't let them grind you down on SA. Keep preaching and praising. Lord bless.

It was confirmed today that I am to be away for at least 3 months, maybe more.

I will try and look in from time to time, but reading the latest posts I can see that there has been no progress and that there are persons who just cannot seem write to edification, or at least they do not care for it! How sad.

If this carries on I shall not have missed much!

Carry on contending for the true sense of the DOG and don't be dismayed when you are labelled an Arminian by the Hypers. That is part of their tactics to make out that they are the ones who are sound in the faith.

"....I say, on the authority of God’s Word, that no man is pardoned unless he has a clean heart! God gives the clean heart at the time He gives the pardon! You must never divide the renewing of the Holy Spirit from the pardon of sin. They go together and he that receives the pardon of sin receives a new birth — and is made a new creature in Christ Jesus then and there. **The work of regeneration and the act of faith which brings justification to the penitent sinner are SIMULTANEOUS** and must, in the nature of the case, always be so."

(Metropolitan Tabernacle Pulpit, Volume 37, Year 1891, pages 560, 561, The Law's Failure and Fulfillment)

"The act of TRUSTING Jesus Christ is the act which brings a soul into a state of Grace and is the mark and evidence of our being bought with the blood of the Lord Jesus. . . . See, then, the FOLLY of persons talking about being regenerated who have no faith! It cannot be! It is IMPOSSIBLE! . . . WITHOUT FAITH THERE CAN BE NO REGENERATION."

(Open Heart for A Great Saviour, C. H. SPURGEON, Sermon #669, Metropolitan Tabernacle Pulpit, Volume 12, 1866)

I think that the above are pretty clear.

Trust that you'll all have a blessed Lord's Day

John UK wrote:
Welcome back brother, even if it is only for a short while etc

I am sad to be away, and it may not be 3 months- but if it is, as you say, I may have opportunities now and again.

Don't mean to inundate you with reading material, but Bob Ross does a very good job explaining Spurgeon's view of Regeneration at:

[URL=http://calvinistflyswatter.blogspot.com/2006_03_01_archive.html]]]Bob Ross, Spurgeon and Regeneration[/URL]

You will have to scroll down to his blog entry dated Friday, March 17, 2006 entitled "Bob Ross: Regeneration -- Calvinism".

Oh well, packed my bags, so must be off now.

Guys, it has been really good to meet you all. As I suspected people understand the DOG in different ways, and too many DOG men are pseudo Calvs.

I am really glad to have met some men (like brothers DJC, John UK, Candle Lit, Mike NY and Michael H) who are thinking men and seek to be whole bible believers. The Lord Bless you all

May the Lord visit us all with reviving power and make us truly useful in the cause of our dear Savior!

Bye for now!

PS.

Sorry John for the previous incorrect link. Try this:

Now I have been trying to gather together as much material as I can to demonstrate that you have misunderstood him (he was no switch-hitter!) , and that Bob Ross is right, but looks like my job is going to prevent me from posting up my findings for now.

Let me therefore just summarise my findings for now and, as and when I get the opportunity, I shall post them up. Spurgeon's view was that regeneration and faith are simultaneous. As to time they occur exactly at the same time, but as to cause regeneration is the cause of faith.

This is why he could insist that no faith, no regeneration- and no regeneration no faith. There was strictly no pre or post faith regeneration.

What then happens pre-regeneration? He would call it effectual calling, in common with the Confessions of Faith. The drawing of the Holy Spirit pre-faith, and the acts of the sinner pre-faith are not the signs of life. Life is only imparted when a person is regenerated. Regeneration therefore is "being born again, being quickened, being given a new heart etc.."

mnemonic wrote:
..CU's problem, and you and DJC appear to have followed him on this, - is that he wanted to remove the source of our justification and salvation and introduce a new "human faculty" which does divine work for God - without God's initial input.

Post up where I have said anything of the sort and let all judge.

If you cannot read with care and divide matters in theological discussions then you should not participate in them because you show yourself to be the fool that you are.

You wrote: "Human faculties remain the same in the saved elect believer" - What utter drivel. You have just been talking about regeneration - are the faculties untouched by regeneration?

You don't even have a basic grasp of matters theological.
_________________________

John UK

How are you bro? My workload has increased and I may be called away for a few months.

May I recommend section 4 of the following :

[URL=http://C:\Documents and Settings\Sani Chikhlia\My Documents\Sundry_2008_08_31\Founders Ministries DAGG BK_ 7 CHAPTER III.htm]]]John Dagg on Regeneration[/URL]

DJC49 wrote:
(followup to my post of 3/4/09 7:59 AM)
... Those preachers against whom Spurgeon was railing in his "The Warrant of Faith" sermon, believed that some could actually go around in a "regenerate state" for months, even years on end without truly believing. These same preachers were probably those who believed in infant regeneration through paedobaptism. THIS is the notion which C.H. Spurgeon was vociferously attacking in that quotation *Calvinist Understanding" offered up in his post of 3/2/09 9:51 PM.
I say *CU* goes to "the virtual cyber-stake" and gets roasted only to "medium rare!"

John UK wrote:
Calvinist Understanding
..DJC49 has spent much time producing other quotes from Spurgeon's sermons which would appear to differ from that quite markedly. Have you observed such, and are you going to refute or respond in any way?

Just very busy with work at the moment and cannot spare the time to post up. But I think "Helps" post was a very useful clarification.

When I have time, I shall post some more.

DJC49

Thanks for all the other Spurgeon quotes and I appreciate what you wrote about the context of the words I cited from him.

John UK wrote:
Calvinist Understanding,
Should this quote of Abraham Booth, recommended by CHS, which you posted 3/3/09 6.11am, have been as follows:
"...This (the theory that regeneration precedes faith), though assumed as a certain fact, may be justly doubted: for the page of inspiration does not warrant our supposing, that any one is born of God, before he believe in Jesus Christ; or, that regeneration is effected by the Holy Spirit, without the word of grace."
Just to clarify, please.

You are quite right - the bit in brackets was me trying to explain what the THIS referred to.

Will these guys ever learn to take steps in their thinking They cannot take steps but they think they can run

The reason for my recent postings have been to demonstrate that the term "regeneration" has been understood, even by reformed men, to mean "born again", "made alive", "saved", justified" etc. and that this takes place only upon faith being exercised. (Which I believe is the biblical definition.) -This is counter to the assertion by DJC that every reformed "Ordo Salutis" puts regeneration before faith.

But permit me to clarify something so that there is no confusion over this. Because of the understanding of these men that "regeneration" means "saved", they would not call the prior work of the Spirit of God in drawing the sinner by that term. As Spurgeon wrote, if a person is already saved, why bother telling him to repent and believe?

Instead this prior work of God in drawing the sinner is dealt with under the term "Effectual Calling" (EF). This is true even of the Baptist Confessions which hold to the DOG.

The point is that there is a work of the Holy Spirit by His word under EC to draw the sinner, but that a person is not "alive"/saved etc. yet by such a work. A person is only saved (born again) when they finally come to faith. If a person has faith he is regenerated - no faith, no regeneration!

"It ought always to be remembered that there are two distinct things which the Lord Jesus Christ does for every sinner whom He undertakes to save. He washes him from his sins in His own blood, and gives him a free pardon: this is his justification. He puts the Holy Spirit into his heart, and makes him an entirely new man: this is his Regeneration.

The two things are both absolutely necessary to salvation. The change of heart is as necessary as the pardon; and the pardon is as necessary as the change. Without the pardon we have no right or title to heaven. Without the change we should not be meet and ready to enjoy heaven, even if we got there.

The two things are never separate. They are never found apart. Every justified man is also a regenerate man, and every regenerate man is also a justified man. When the Lord Jesus Christ gives a man remission of sins, He also gives him repentance. When He grants peace with God, He also grants “power to become a son of God.” There are two great standing maxims of the glorious Gospel, which ought never to be forgotten. One is: “He that believeth not shall be damned.” (Mark xvi. 16.) The other is: “If any man hath not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His.” (Rom. viii. 9.)"

"..It is objected, "..Though it be not necessary for a sinner to know that he is born again, before he believe in Jesus Christ, yet regeneration must precede faith. For the heart of a sinner being naturally in a state of enmity to the Divine Character, he will never turn to God, while in that situation, for pardon and acceptance..." - In answer to which, the following particulars are proposed for consideration. Before this objection can be justly considered as valid, it must be evinced, not only, that regeneration precedes faith; but also, that it is necessary to authorise a sinner's reliance on Jesus Christ: than which, few sentiments are more foreign from the genuine gospel.

...This (the theory that faith precedes faith), though assumed as a certain fact, may be justly doubted: for the page of inspiration does not warrant our supposing, that any one is born of God, before he believe in Jesus Christ; or, that regeneration is effected by the Holy Spirit, without the word of grace."

John Calvin on 1 Cor 13.13 ".. In fine, it is BY FAITH that we are born again, that we become the sons of God — that we obtain eternal life, and that Christ dwells in us..."

CH Spurgeon in "Warrant of Faith" p.531,532
"If I am to preach faith in Christ to a man who is regenerated, then the man, being regenerated, is saved already, and it is an unnecessary and ridiculous thing for me to preach Christ to him, and bid him to believe in order to be saved when he is saved already, being regenerate".

So much for "regeneration" always preceding faith in reformed writings

Perhaps Calvin and Spurgeon were both Arminians when it came to this question, and both deserved to be burned at the stake?

For those who are interested in reading the older, puritan view, of "Regeneration", please refer to:

[URL=http://www.ccel.org/ccel/charnock/instr_regen/files/instr_regen.html]]]Of the Word, the Instrument of Regeneration[/URL]

John 20.31 "..But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; AND THAT BELIEVINIG YE MIGHT HAVE LIFE through his name."

G'night all.

DJC49 wrote:
[a] First of all, don't tell me to calm down, *CU*! If there's ANYTHING that can automatically get me fired up, is for someone to tell me to "calm down" when I'm already perfectly calm as it is. But somehow, through some sort of magic, you're able to take my emotional temperature over the Internet. Ha!

DJC49 wrote:
[b] Exactly! You can't teach regeneration prior to faith nor can you demonstarte that Acts 11:15 CONTRADICTS the Calvinist/Reformed Ordo Salutis ...

DJC49 wrote:
Okay, Michael ... enough of your subterfuge ... let's get down to brass tacks, shall we?
In your post of 3/2/09 1:54 PM, YOU gave Acts 11:13,14 & 15 as PROOF that the Bible CONTRADICTS the Calvinistic/Reformed order of salvation, i.e., regeneration preceding faith/repentence..

Calm down!

You are making too much of the words "And as I began to speak etc.". In Acts 10 he had already covered the basics of the gospel, including the need to believe in Christ for the remission of sins before we read of the Holy Spirit coming down on Cornelius and his household. The inference is clear that he and his household believed all that Peter had declared and God sealed their acceptance (for the benefit of Peter and his band) by pouring out his Spirit on them as he had done on them on the day of Pentecost.

The phrase "And as I began to speak etc." is probably just Peter's way of saying that he had not even really got into his sermon and they believed. Nice when that happens

I don't think that you can use this passage to teach regeneration prior to faith!
________________________

John UK

DJC49 wrote:
Nice catch, *Curious*!!!
I hadn't noticed that faulty "Ordo Salutis" ascribed to the Reformed by our friend *Calvinist Understanding*
[Shame on me]
Certainly, every Reformed order of salvation lists regeneration before faith and repentance. *CU* snuck that fastball right by us unawares!
But *CU* being *Yamil*???
That's really a shot-in-the-dark.

Joe T. wrote:
Thank you CU, but that does not change my view on total depravity. I do believe there was an operation of the Spirit in Cornelius, being quickened, in which otherwise he could not have done those acts mentioned in Act 10:2, that had come up for a memorial before God, while being dead in trespasses and sins.

puzzled wrote:
Well, I guess I'm defiled because I cringe when I read this.

Ex: Miriam Webster.

"Main Entry: naughty
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English noughti, from nought
Date: 14th century
1a: archaic : vicious in moral character : wicked

1b: guilty of disobedience or misbehavior

2: lacking in taste or propriety

__________________________

Joe T.

Takes a big man to admit an error. Bravo

__________________________

John UK

Huge subject and not enough space to write on it in small posts. There is an element of truth in what you say, but we need to distinguish the Holy Spirit's work in "regeneration" in the wider sense - the work of grace, which is evidenced by certain marks, and his providential leading and drawing.

I believe that the latter happens in a sense before we are even born - God decides what year we shall be born, to which family, the geographical location etc. as all of these factors will shape our character, out thinking etc.