Mike wrote:
1) CONGRESS shall make no law...(not "government bodies")
2) And by using the estab. clause, CAIR is admitting Sharia is religion, thus it cannot rightly be used as a preferred religious law in courts which claim to be separate from religious preference.
3)Oklahoma lawmakers upheld their law by denying Sharia in court. If you wish to apply Rom 13, the judge resists the ordinance of God.

1) Does that mean "government bodies" can make laws without Congress approval?

2) So the "free exercise thereof" - of Islam (Sharia) cannot be appealed to in this court, right?

Michael Hranek wrote:
Just a quick question, WHY? in the world would you want to continue posting from the WCF since you have already let the cat out of the bag about SACRAMENTS, so to speak?

On the WCF it is an excellent teacher on Biblical Doctrines and combined with the Catechism is a very good way to learn and comprehend the teachings and precepts of God's Word.

As for "sacraments" the dictionary has it::
"Ecclesiastical . a visible sign of an inward grace, esp. one of the solemn Christian rites considered to have been instituted by Jesus Christ to symbolize or confer grace: the sacraments of the Protestant churches are baptism and the Lord's Supper; the sacraments of the Roman Catholic and Greek Orthodox churches are baptism, confirmation, the Eucharist, matrimony, penance, holy orders, and extreme unction.
2. Also called Holy Sacrament, the Eucharist or Lord's Supper."

The words origin is 12th cent. French.
The word "crucify" is also 12th cent. French. Should we abandon them both because of this??

Mike wrote:
1) I will attempt to respond later. Busy days, family coming in. But I do hope that you will enjoy a blessed and peaceful Christmas, Authy.

2) "Angels, from the realms of glory,
Wing your flight o'er all the earth;
Ye, who sang creation's story,
Now proclaim Messiah's birth:
Come and worship,
Come and worship
Worship Christ, the new-born King."

2) Psalms Only.

R .Gr wrote:
those that have trully put their faith in Christ that have flaws still remaining

# [a] John 15:5; Rom 5:6; 8:7.
• [b] Rom 3:10, 12.
• [c] Eph 2:1, 5; Col 2:13.
• [d] John 6:44, 65; 1 Cor 2:14; Eph 2:2-5; Titus 3:3-5.

"All those whom God hath predestinated unto life, and those only, he is pleased, in his appointed and accepted time, effectually to call,[a by his Word and Spirit,[b out of that state of sin and death, in which they are by nature, to grace and salvation by Jesus Christ;[c enlightening their minds, spiritually and savingly, to understand the things of God;[d taking away their heart of stone, and giving unto them an heart of flesh;[e renewing their wills, and by his almighty power determining them to that which is good,[f and effectually drawing them to Jesus Christ;[g yet so as they come most freely, being made willing by his grace.[h (WCF)

R .Gr wrote:
You may be the stawman himself who wont answer the question.

R .Gr wrote:
If you want to be sound in Faith. TRy answering questions that people bring up then at least by one's answer we will see if it to be sound

"The grace of faith, whereby the elect are enabled to believe to the saving of their souls,[a] is the work of the Spirit of Christ in their hearts,[b] and is ordinarily wrought by the ministry of the Word;[c] by which also, and by the administration of the sacraments and prayer, it is increased and strengthened.[d] (WCF)

# [a] Heb 10:39.
• [b] Eph 1:17-19; 2:8; 2 Cor 4:13.
• [c] Rom 10:14, 17.
• [d]. Luke 17:5; Acts 20:32; Rom 1:16-17; 4:11; 1 Pet 2:2.

"God from all eternity did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass;[a] yet so as thereby neither is God the author of sin,[b] nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.[c] (WCF)

Mike wrote:
What would your position say about this matter?

Article states...
"CAIR alleges the amendment violates the First Amendment's Establishment Clause that bars government bodies from making laws respecting the establishment of religion."

# Constitution....
"Through the debates in the House, Senate, and conference committees, the wording of all of these proposals was whittled down to the religion clauses of what is our 1st Amendment:

""Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.""

"In the end, the 1st Amendment not only prevents the establishment of a national religion, but it also prohibits government aid to any religion, even on an non-preferential basis, as well as protecting the right of the individual to choose to worship, or not, as he or she sees fit."

jpw wrote:
Authy, you misquoted me. This is what I said.....
"Authy, let me get this straight, if someone who told you "I am government" ordered you to break God's Commandments (such as do not commit idolatry, do not murder, do not steal), you would just follow the order without conscience or concern?"

Mike wrote:
Then it becomes clear, doesn't it? Since the judge is not a law-making authority, and refuses to submit to the law-making authority that rejected foreign sharia in Oklahoma courts, I take it Calvin would agree the judge is resisting the ordinance of God.

EG::
2Tim 4:18 And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

2Peter 2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

Mike wrote:
A US federal judge is not a ruler, neither under Romans 13, nor under the US Constitution.

Of course magistrates and Justice are an authority.

And ALL authority comes from God.

Titus 3:1 Put them in mind to be subject to principalities and powers, to obey magistrates, to be ready to every good work,

Our dear old friend John Calvin says of this verse;

"Thus, after having spoken of particular duties, Paul now wishes to give a general admonition to all, to observe peaceably the order of civil government, to submit to the laws, to obey magistrates. That subjection to princes, and that obedience to magistrates, which he demands, is extended to edicts, and laws, and other parts of civil government." (Calvin's Titus commentary)

jpw wrote:
Authy, well that is a good verse to quote here, we must obey God rather than man. So what be it? Have you come to a new revelation or are you going to leave us all hanging ?

Romans 13 and 1Peter 2:13ff command us to submit and obey all authority which, I reiterate, comes from God.

What you do then is...
Trust in God to take care of His servants.

TheManBehindTheManBehindTheMan wrote:
Will Have To Agree 100% With Elmer

Remember Tony that Biblical Calvinism knows a sovereign God and helps prepare the Elect for eternal life in Christ. Whereas your papist "salvation by works" receives Christs retort; "And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity" Matt 7:23

____________________

R.Gr wrote:
If you dont know why say anything, now we at least know why you haven,t replied to our question

Mike wrote:
Maybe so, my friend. But I never believed man saves himself, nor that Calvinism saves either.

Calvinism is the fruit; - Not the Saviour!

Mike wrote:
Salvation is of the Lord.

Mike wrote:
John 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Mike wrote:
We are on diferent wavelengths for sure, unfortunately.

Stuff and nonsense

Mike wrote:
If you find in these verses that all commands of the powers that be are to be obeyed

Romans 13:1ff and 1Peter 2:13ff commands that the Christian submit not only to the "powers that be" - But also to "EVERY ordinance of man"

Mike wrote:
any resistance to any authority by anyone anytime about anything must....

If this is not so, what are the exceptions?

Remember what Paul is working with in Rom 13. A foreign military occupying power. You can't get much worse than that. The heart of any and all national governments on earth is a bunch of sinners. Whether Republicans or NAZI's all are sinners. Therefore "good" government - "evil" government is a fiction. But hey this is mankind an entire planet full of sinners - of whom God will save only a tiny Remnant. Seeking perfect sinless government is a non-starter. But authority amongst large groups of people is essential.

In this 'bedlam' of humanity God commands
#1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
#2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

Like Col 3:22 "servants obey masters" - These are extremely difficult commands to obey. BUT God is sovereign over ALL people, (even politicians) and HE has given HIS elect the Holy Spirit to be "GOD's" witness.

R .Gr wrote:
You wont get an answer JPW your question doesn,t have holes in for him to answer. Your question if answered biblicaly will make his face go red.

R .Gr wrote:
That being the Christian there is nothing that is able to seperate, but to the lost its clear distruction for them when you have a trully evil king.

Proverbs 8:15 By me kings reign, and princes decree justice. 16 By me princes rule, and nobles, even all the judges of the earth.

1Peter 2:13 Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme;
14 Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well.
15 For so is the will of God, that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men:
16 As free, and not using your liberty for a cloke of maliciousness, but as the servants of God.