rogerant wrote:
And what, this liberalism has not affected mainline Presbyterian, Christian Reformed,...........

But!! - That was really not the point in the post below.

GG wrote:
This, alone may be enough proof for some lost person to make the 'leap of faith' and believe in Jesus. Besides, I love things that baffle the experts.

Using an old and dubious relic as "proof" for the natural man to come to Christ is the usual salvation by works dogma of the RCC, - Which won't work.

Casob wrote:
I quoted Poverbs 1 and these fellows have not bothered with the text at all, and they won't. Why? Because they practice the religion of human reasoning.

Doctrinally he is in such obvious confusion.
But it is written and inevitable that many will not receive the Truth.
Read the Bible; Yes; But not receive the Truth.
Curiously this helps perception within the Elect. (1Cor 11:19)

If JD, and others, must establish preconditions on the Lord about election and salvation, this will prove to be a sinful downfall.
Iniquity in the natural man is such an insidious influence upon the human condition. Only divine hands can unlock the deep dungeon of Total Depravity. Whilst divine hands hold THAT KEY then clearly Atonement will be Limited. There is no doubt that the Keys to the Kingdom are in Sovereign and divine hands.

Matt 16:19 Christ is the keyholder of heaven.
Rev 1:18 Christ is the keyholder of hell and death.

rogerant wrote:
Episcopalian??? Since when has the Episcapalian Church changed it's doctrine to "free will doctrine adherents????

Either God did/does it.
Or
Man by his very own free will does it.

Some Examples of Free Will doctrine adherents are

Pelagius (5th Century)
Semi-Pelagians
Arminians
Synergists
RCC
Liberals
JW's
Episcopalian
Mega Churches
Mormons
Unitarians

What I would like to know is; will the European Human Rights Court have a chimp on the bench with them to ensure a fair hearing.

Or is the E. H. R. Court discriminating against suitably trained chimps, thereby in default of their own legal rights precedent?

When will these papists stop worshipping relics and fiction.
If your faith doesn't depend on it - then why bother with this old irrelevant rag.

Mike wrote:
you must be seeing 2 Peter 2:1 through Reformed spectacles if you do not see what is plain as day. These false teachers who deny the Lord who bought them, you would have that He did not buy them.

The news today is that the 24 week limit on the murder of infants remains extant.

Once an embryo is fertilized there is only one way which it can go; - That is called life. (Unless nature dictates otherwise)

If for any reason you stop or prevent it from continuing upon the course of life, whether one day old, one month old, nine months old or eighty years old; - Then the state to which you bring it is the opposite of life. THAT is called death.

rogerant wrote:
There are those of us who come to these forums to discuss scripture and debate theology.

Mike wrote:
The verse states that false teachers deny the Lord *that bought them* How am I to read it to mean something else ?

The price Christ paid is sufficient for those whom God alone will draw to Him.

Who can "deny" Christ but those who do not know Him. EG Matt 7:21:23/Rev 3:14ff

2Tim 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but *DENYING* the power thereof: from such turn away.

Titus 1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they *DENY* him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

Jude 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and *DENYING* the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

As you can read Mike, there is a lot of *DENYING* about in the *VISIBLE* church.

Not everybody who goes to church is Elect!

Mike wrote:
You mean the Bible says false teachers who bring heresies deny the Lord that bought them, thus bringing upon themselves destruction? Hmm.

Amongst the people of God, Peter warns of false prophets/teachers as being a reality both historically(OT) and in the future. Secondly he warns of the damnable heresies that they shall bring to the pulpit. All perfectly obvious then and now.
“Even denying the Lord that bought them” Is obviously a heresy.
Again warning of fact and reality. Denying Christ is a damnable offence to God and those who embrace it bring destruction on themselves. Thus we observe
1] Christ Crucified purchased the Elect alone.
2] All who deny the Christ, who paid God in full, go to hell.
3] The Holy Spirit enables the believer to identify the “denial” and thus directs the follower to the true path/Church. Even though deniers gain access to pulpits.
4] The proof of the “completeness” of Christ’s work on the cross is brought to the true believer, notwithstanding (as Peter here teaches) the reality of false ministers/pastors teaching a false christ, hence denying the Lord’s “paid in full” atonement.

Michael Hranek wrote:
Minnow
Well apparently God has choosen or choses to save those who call upon His Name see Romans 10

Romans 10

13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
= How come your old church the RCC "call upon the name of the Lord" but you declare them not to be saved?

14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? [Do they believe in the TRUE Christ?] and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? [Do they "HEAR" (are taught) of the TRUE Christ?] and how shall they hear without a preacher? [Is the guy in their pulpit really sent by God?]

15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? [What is preached by those who are not sent?]

Mike wrote:
Yup. That 16th century justice system, so-called, was indeed unjust also in much. But those dispensers of justice did have God on their side, didn't they?

John 10:4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.

John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

GBY

Michael Hranek wrote:
May I ask you a question?
Just how much of the will of the Father, not His permissive will, but His will in sense of Who He Is, did John Calvin do when he persecuted, if memory serves me, even using the state to execute some of those who did not believe the way he believed?

Fact is even today NO one individual has "sole" responsibility for the justice system in Europe, or any other country on earth.
Strange that ain't it?

BTW In 16th century Geneva civil authority was held in the "Council of Two Hundred" which was 200 "citizens" - Calvin didn't become a citizen until the last few years of his life.

If you are trying to disprove the Biblical Doctrines of Grace, perhaps you could try using the Bible instead of historical conjecture.

May the Lord bring you into all Truth.

Viz::

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven
22 MANY will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me,

12 ......if we deny him, he also will deny us

24......for MANY, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able
25...... and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:
26 Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets
27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity

Thus God's choice(election) alone is absolute, sovereign and final.

1Peter 4:18 And if the righteous SCARCELY be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

Jo 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do

Praise be to God, His Son Jesus finished the work which God sent Him to complete.

PILUT wrote:
So if some get more faith, and faith IS salvation, do some have more salvation than others?

If faith is given more to some than others, how can it be one in the same with salvation when salvation either is or isn't?

Rev 7:10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb

Ans #2=Same **AUTHOR** OF BOTH

Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the **AUTHOR** of eternal SALVATION unto all them that obey him;