John UK wrote: Me I've just read Zechariah 8 for my early morning treat, and it may be one of those prophecies the Jews count on for endtime restoration,
For me, the language is still old covenant language, therefore cannot refer to a present day reality.
Thank you for your response.
For me to post all the promises to the Jewish people from the major and minor prophets would take considerable time, but I am prepared to do it.
Respectfully, John, the new covenant was better than the old covenant, in that there would no longer be a need for a sacrificial system, but it did not negate the promises of God to a people. God's promises never fail. He cannot lie. His actions are independent of ours. He is trustworthy. His ways are higher than our ways.
"For when God made the promise to Abraham, since He could swear by no one greater, He swore by Himself, saying, "I will surely bless you, and I will surely multiply you." Hebrews 6:13
What the new covenant did was open the door for the Gentiles to enter in. Thus, it was not exclusive but expansive!
For on the one hand, there is a setting aside of a former commandment because of its weakness and uselessness (for the Law made nothing perfect) and on the other (see He
Many things are happening concurrently, in the physical and spiritual realm. We want to simplify things by saying "Christians go to heaven, where we endlessly praise the Lord, while sinners suffer endless torture in hell. But Scripture tells us a whole lot more concerning the new heavens and new earth.
"Thus says the LORD, 'I will return to Zion and will dwell in the midst of Jerusalem. Then Jerusalem will be called the City of Truth, and the mountain of the LORD of hosts will be called the Holy Mountain.'
and I will bring them back, and they will live in the midst of Jerusalem, and they will be My people and I will be their God in truth and righteousness.'
For there will be peace for the seed; the vine will yield its fruit, the land will yield its produce, and the heavens will give their dew; and I will cause the remnant of this people to inherit all these things.
And it will come about that just as you were a curse among the nations, O house of Judah and house of Israel, so I will save you that you may become a blessing. . .
Thus says the LORD of hosts, 'It will yet be that peoples will come, even the inhabitants of many cities; and the inhabitants of one will go to another saying, "Let us go at once to entreat the favor of
"Therefore, wait for Me," declares the LORD, "For the day when I rise up to the prey. Indeed, My decision is to gather nations, to assemble kingdoms, to pour out on them My indignation, all my burning anger; for all the earth will be devoured by the fire of My zeal.
For then I will give to the peoples purified lips, that all of them may call on the name of the LORD, to serve Him shoulder to shoulder.
From beyond the rivers of Ethiopia My worshipers, My dispersed ones, will bring My offerings.
In that day you will feel no shame because of all your deeds by which you have rebelled against Me; for then I will remove from your midst your proud, exulting ones, and you will never again be haughty on My holy mountain.
But I will leave among you a humble and lowly people, and they will take refuge in the name of the LORD.
The remnant of Israel will do no wrong and tell no lies, nor will a deceitful tongue be found in their mouths; for they shall feed and lie down with no one to make them tremble.
Shout for joy, O daughter of Zion? Shout in triumph, O Israel! Rejoice and exult with all your heart, O daughter of Jerusalem!
The LORD has taken away His judgments against you, He has cleared away your enemies. . Continued. .
More Scripture concerning the Jewish people being brought back into the land. After nearly 2000 yrs. this happened in 1948. Nothing like such has ever before occurred in history. The regathering of a people scattered to the ends of the earth, for such a long time. And, the revival of the Hebrew language. Amazing!
"Behold, days are coming," declares the LORD, "When the plowman will overtake the reaper and the treader of grapes him who sows seed; when the mountains will drip sweet wine, and all the hills will be dissolved.
"Also I will restore the captivity of My people Israel, and they will rebuild the ruined cities and live in them, they will also plant vineyards and drink their wine, and make gardens and eat their fruit.
"I will also plant them on their land, and they will not again be rooted out from their land which I have given them," says the LORD your God."
Micah 4:1 "And it will come about in the last days that the mountain of the house of the LORD will be established as the chief of the mountains. It will be raised above the hills, and the peoples will stream to it.
vs. 2 "And many nations will come and say, 'Come and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD and to the house of the God of Jacob, that He may teach
". . .And the heavens and the earth tremble. But the LORD is a refuge for His people and a stronghold to the sons of Israel.
Then you will know that I am the LORD your God, dwelling in Zion My holy mountain. So Jerusalem will be holy, and strangers will pass through it no more.
And it will come about in that day that the mountains will drip with sweet wine, and the hills will flow with milk, and all the brooks of Judah will flow with water; and a spring will go out from the house of the LORD, to water the valley of Shittim.
Egypt will become a waste, and Edom will become a desolate wilderness, because of the violence done to the sons of Judah in whose land they have shed innocent blood.
But Judah will be inhabited forever, and Jerusalem for all generations.
And I will avenge their blood which I have not avenged, for the LORD dwells in Zion."
You can't spiritualize these verses away. They speak of a yet to be time, and for a specific people - namely, Israel - not spiritual Israel, but Israel proper.
I'm reading the minor prophets, and, once again I'm overcome by emotion with the love that God has for His people. Hear this:
"Return, O Israel, to the LORD your God, for you have stumbled because of your iniquity." Hosea 14:1
vs. 4 "I will heal their apostasy, I will love them freely, for My anger has turned away from them."
Joel 2:18 "Then the LORD will be zealous for His land, and will have pity of His people."
vs. 19 "And the LORD will answer and say to His people, 'Behold, I am going to send you grain, new wine, and oil, and you will be satisfied in full with them; and I will never again make you a reproach among the nations.'"
3:1,2 "For behold, in those days and at that time, when I restore the fortunes of Judah and Jerusalem, I will gather all the nations, and bring them down to the valley of Jehoshaphat. Then I will enter into judgment with them there on behalf of My people and My inheritance, Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations; and they have divided up My land."
vs. 14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision! For the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.
vs 15 The sun and moon grow dark, and the stars lose their brightness.
vs 16 And the LORD roars from Zion, and utters His voice from Jerusalem
Banned wrote: Read Deuteronomy 28, 5-68, 17:14-20. There were plenty of conditions on this land of milk and honey, which is why the Jews never actually enjoyed any milk and honey. God said, if you will do this I will do that. If you don't, then I will do this instead. Instead of milk and honey the land of Canaan was war, subjection, slavery, bloodshed.
Blessings and curses were based on obedience, but the Covenant stands.
Even so today, there are blessings and curses that follow obedience.
Blindness in part has happened to the Jewish people until the fullness of the Gentiles. Then, the Jews will be grafted in.
Zech 1:16,17 "Therefore, thus says the LORD, 'I will return to Jerusalem with compassion; My house will be built in it,' declares the LORD of hosts, 'and a measuring line will be stretched over Jerusalem."'
"Again, proclaim, saying, 'Thus says the LORD of hosts, "My cities will again overflow with prosperity, and the LORD will again comfort Zion and again choose Jerusalem."'"
Banned wrote: The promises of Canaan were conditional, same as Heaven is conditional (Deut. 17 and 28) A covenant is a two-way contract.
I beg to differ . . . a contract is two-way and conditional upon both parties meeting the terms of the agreement. If either party breaks the terms of the agreement, it is invalid.
Not so with a Covenant. It is not dependent on the one receiving, but on the one enacting or giving the promise. That would be GOD in relationship to Abraham. GOD cannot break His Covenant with Abraham.
Genesis 15:7 "And He said to him, 'I am the LORD who brought you out of Ur of the Chaldeans, to give you this land to possess it.
And he said, 'O LORD God, how may I know that I shall possess it?'
Read vs. 9-17
Then vs. 18 "On that day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, 'To your descendants I have given this land, from the river of Egypt as far as the great river, the river Euphrates: the Kenite and the Kenizzite and the Kadmonite and the Hittite and the Perizzite and the Rephaim and the Amorite and the Canaanite and the Girgashite and the Jebusite.'"
Seems real specific to me - and, without conditions.
Banned wrote: God's covenant with Abraham was with Abraham only.
God said to Abraham, "And I will establish My covenant between Me and you, and your descendants after you throughout their generations, for an EVERLASTING COVENANT, to be God to you and to your descendants after you."
"And I will give to you and to your descendants after you, the land of your sojournings, all the land of Canaan, for an EVERLASTING POSSESSION; and will be their God." Genesis 17:7,8
Can't be any clearer than that, *Banned*. BTW, I thought you were cleaning up your act.
You believe then, that 'a people' you refer to, are in the direct blood relationship with Abraham? It has to be either 'blood relationship' or 'covenant relationship', doesn't it? But if it is 'covenant relationship',
I should probably refresh my memory on this before speaking, but, here goes. . . The covenant relationship that God had with Abraham through Issac was irrevocable - it was an everlasting covenant - it did not depend on Abraham or his descendants keeping it. When God performed the covenant ritual, with Abraham asleep, the covenant was with God Himself. So, therefore, it could not be broken, ever. It would stand.
So, the covenant was with Abraham and his descendants also through a bloodline of people, through whom the Saviour would come. Gentiles who do not have the bloodline of Abraham, have been grafted in - adopted, into the family, through faith in Jesus, the Messiah.
Of course, I know that not every descendant in the bloodline of Abraham will be saved - only those who have believed in the Jesus, the Messiah.
Don't know if I am clear on this. Like I said, I probably need to re-read the Genesis account.
John UK wrote: Article called 'The Future of Israel re-examined'. very few Jews at the time of Christ had any of Abraham's blood in them. in the Biblical sense, unless by "True Jews" we mean Christians. There is no covenant, and therefore there is no nation, no "race." James B Jordan (preterist) Is he right?
How interesting that Mr. Jordan, in a civilized way, with the power of words, attempts to do what the persecutors of the Jews down through the centuries could not do - with the stroke of a pen, he can wipe out the Jews. How powerful he must feel.
In answer to your question, John - NO, he is WRONG.
Pride goeth before destruction and a haughty spirit before a fall.
Satan is alive and well on planet earth working through people like Mr. Jordan - still wickedly pursuing the destruction of a people through whom God would use to bring Praise to Himself, and a blessing to the whole world.
shed a little light wrote: Isn't the suggestion that Satan can do as God does - a blasphemy??? 2 Corinthians 6:15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?
Say, what????? Where's the light you are shedding?