just a thought wrote:
Where does God command us to debate fellow believers?

Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ.

And some of them believed, and consorted with Paul and Silas; and of the devout Greeks a great multitude, and of the chief women not a few.

But the Jews which believed not, moved with envy, took unto them certain lewd fellows of the baser sort, and gathered a company, and set all the city on an uproar, and assaulted the house of Jason, and sought to bring them out to the people.

Robert wrote:
Yes.

There is NOTHING more to say.

Robert stated: "...only a non-literal hermeneutic will permit the amillennial position."

That's absolutely correct! Otherwise, Christians would be looking for a literal beast coming out of the sea and land, or a woman in the wilderness, etc.

Revelation 21:15-16

*And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof.
*And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.

So, is this heavenly Jerusalem "LITERALLY" a 1500 mile cube?

AMill--I saw an article by Kuiper on www.mountainretreatorg.net. Excellent post.

Robert--either the Holy Spirit made a mistake or MAN did in interpreting God's Word. We both know the first statement cannot be true so the second one must be soundly and rightly examined.

First of all, in reading Revelation 14, there is no evidence or corroboration with the WHOLE of scripture that the 144000 are Jews ONLY.

Secondly, your POV has to start with the premise that there is a DIFFERENCE between Jews and Christians. This has NO SCRIPTURAL basis. All the Spiritual seed of Abraham is the mystery revealed called the Church--the Faithful of Christ who are sealed by the Holy Spirit.

Thirdly, the Great Tribulation is a term to describe tribulation that is MORE INTENSE, MORE EVIL, MORE TRYING in comparison to previous generations. It is a time when Satan and his demonic host are fully released and is given by GOD permission to first TEST the CHURCH and than rule, via men, the world. These men and ALL peoples are those who have the mark of the beast who is Satan.

If you believe that there will be a "literal" 7-year tribulation after the rapture and then a "literal" 1000 year earthly reign, do you believe that only a "literal" 144,000 will be saved?

And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads. (REVELATION 14:1)

If you say NO, how do you determine which numbers are symbolic?

- - -
For an in-depth historical study of Dispensationalism, read Timothy P. Weber's 'On The Road To Armageddon: How Evangelicals Became Israel's Best Friend.'

a christian-buddhist
a christian zionist
a gay christian
a politically liberal christian
a politically conservative christian
an ecumenical christian

and so on...

There is only one kind of Christian--Faithful.

I understand Here24's side and sometimes it helps to understand major bills from the past. Yes, Yes YES, previous laws and their abuses are NOT a predictor of future abuses--I KNOW THIS!

HOWEVER, when one researches the abuses, BLATANT ONES, that put the ADA and the CAPTA and the SSA and on and on not to mention the PATRIOT ACT, to the forefront of many cases tried in our supposedly just courts, one should realize that bills such as this only sets up the whole populace for future loss of liberty.

THE DOOMSDAY CODE

Scott McMahan wrote:
Selling a book, as usual - do you really believe this is quality information?

Stout, Maureen, The Feel-Good Curriculum
- - -
"A whole host of narcissistic traits—extreme self-importance, inflated sense of specialness, vanity, envy, and entitlement—...These shows offer hope to all narcissistic viewers who ever dreamed that fame, or even just ostentatious wealth, could be theirs simply by demanding it." (65)

Pinsky, Dr. Drew and Dr. S. Mark Young, The Mirror Effect: How Celebrity Narcissism Is Seducing America
- - -
"Therapists, not priests or popular preachers of self-help or models of success like the captains of industry, become his principal allies in the struggle for composure; he turns to them in the hope of achieving the modern equivalent of salvation, 'mental health.'

In this day of blame-recovery- empowerment-'it's all about me'- naricissistic-post-modern-self-worship society, nothing really is an "addiction" anymore. It's a disease. Labeling bad behavior (poor choices which everyone makes) a disease encourages certain industries like: big-pharma, social services, lawyers (of course), the entire self-help coaching/movement, and yes EVEN CHURCHES to PROFIT FROM THIS!

Secondly, I too would like to recommend two books: Damned Lies And Statistics, & More Damned Lies And Statistics, by Joel Best.

"People use statistics to support particular points of view, and it is naive simply to accept numbers as accurate, without examining who is using them and why (Damned 1)."

"Innumeracy is the mathematical equivalent of illiteracy; it is 'an inability to deal comfortably with the fundamental notions of number and chance (from John A. Paulor, Innumeracy )' Just as some people cannot read or read poorly, many people have trouble thinking clearly about numbers (ibid 19)."

I glanced at the title and I thought it read:

"...same old ADJECTIVE"

and that the director's name was:

Communion will be held at Family Buffet--if one piece of bread and a small cup of grape juice represents the body of the lord, perhaps plate after plate of fried chicken, pork chops, dinner rolls and gravy, and a bottomless drink could represent not just the lord but every spirit of god. Cheers!

Neil wrote:
"do you think there are a substantial number of pastors who are atheists?"
I do, at least beyond the pulpit. Observe how churches are run.
Children don't need teachers to instruct them in profanity; that education already occurs in the schoolyard, if not at home.

(1) a book, whose authors, researchers, and their respective political affiliates, give their personal interpretation about words while purposefully ignoring its etymology esp. if the word has a religious or biblical origin.
(2) a book that may or may not contain the truthfulness of word or symbol meanings--caveat emptor.
(3) (archaic) a book that used to have a privileged place in family living rooms, on college dorm shelves, in the office of professionals, etc.

http://www.fivesolas.com/cal_arm.htm

_ _ _

Fred wrote:
your propaganda doesn't work on me.

Wouldn't it have been better to have written:

"I'll need to think about my position further but I will have an answer shortly."

Fred wrote:
But other lost souls like Calvinists

Both Calvinists and Roman Catholics

Please, oh please, answer this question.

* What SPECIFIC evidence from Calvin's work is heretical that has confirmed for you that Calvinists are "lost?"

Spare us the emotion-inciting rhetoric that anti-calvinists and evolutionists use and make your best argument with carefully considered premises stemming from Calvin's work.

I'll start you off: