John UK wrote:
Great point! Matthew Henry says something similar. And I'd not heard that before.

(He also authored the "I wills of the Psalms", and the "I wills of Christ")

Here is a pdf copy of Pivot words:

[URL=https://archive.org/download/MN41819ucmf_4/MN41819ucmf_4.pdf]]] Download it now [/URL]

John UK wrote:
Thank you Dorcas, bless your heart. Yes, it is a treatise concerning Owen's work on the subject, and I look forward to having a read of it when time permits. Thanks again.

Isaiah 53:5
But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

Cf

1 Peter 2:24
Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

CAB insists that his dying had nothing to do with our sins. He was not punished for our sins?! Then what is the Gospel? What is it we are to preach to the lost?

May the Lord have mercy on her miserable soul. She is still in the gall of bitterness and in the bond of iniquity.

Repent CAB before the Lord visit you in judgement for cheapening the Gospel of His dear Son of whom we read:

2 Corinthians 5:21
For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

9] Our salvation came about by “reconciliation.”

That is, satisfaction being rendered to the offended party whose justice must be fully met and, as a result, God’s most righteous displeasure with us on account of sin has been removed (Romans 5:10; Colossians 1:20; Romans 3:25; 1 John 2:2; 4:10).

After a most learned treatment of "propitiation” in both Testaments, Dr. Leon Morris makes this telling point: “The Scripture is clear that the wrath of God is visited on sinners or else that the Son of God dies for them. Either sinners are punished for their misdoings or else there takes place what Hodgson calls ‘that self-punishment which combines the activities of punishing and forgiving.’ Either we die or He dies. ‘But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us’ (Romans 5:8)” (The Apostolic Preaching of the Cross, page 213).

7] The very concept of a “surety” Hebrews 7:22) requires one who performs a service or pays a debt on behalf of another (Gen 43:9; cf. Philemon 18).

8] There is no doubt that God inflicted “chastisement” or “punishment” upon Christ (Isaiah 53:5,10; Zechariah 13:7). God “condemned sin in the flesh” (Romans 8:4). “The Punishment which God meted out to Christ was the very punishment which was due to his people. (Arthur Pink, The Atonement, page 93). Pink proceeds to quote Dr. John Brown: “To the enlightened eye, there is found on the cross another inscription, besides that which Pilate ordered to be written there: The Victim of Guilt. The Wages of sin” (ibid.)

CAB wrote:
Go read Teen Christian's post about all the pastors around him who are in trouble divorcing, raping, seducing, embezzling. The divorce rate of Christians is higher than the liberals. You will know them by their fruit.
The so-called Christians are the biggest warmongering neocons, wanting to blow up peaceful families across the ocean and steal their oil, as tho we don't have oceans of it right here for ourselves, but we want theirs too.
Yes, I've heard sermons here where people were told to ignore the four gospels, the words of Jesus--that they were in code to the Jews and "not for us."
How many sermons will you find that deal with the teachings of Jesus? That should tell you something right there.
Please just don't act like you don't know these things.
Jesus said, You will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.
Truth. Just love it and face it. It's all around if you just want to see it.

CAB wrote:
....What a corrupting evil doctrine. Turns God into a blind raging fool, and Jesus into a punching bag, and you not changed a bit by a bloodless atonement.

A troll of the worst sort. People please give her a wide berth. She knows nothing and seems determined not to learn anything. Her agenda is clear viz. to do the devil's work by promoting heresy.

CAB wrote:
You can post up all this stuff, 3 posts in a row, from somebody's writings, not have to wait for somebody else to post, and this is done by changing your ID a little bit? Or how are you doing this? A special app? Just wondering. Not that I'm interested in breaking any of the posting rules here myself, but just wondering how you do it.

5] It is said that Christ became “a curse for us” (Galatians 3:13).

Since the curse of the Law was the penalty of sin (Deuteronomy 27:26; Galatians 3:10), this can only mean that He was charged with sin and was judged as if He was a sinner - although, of course, He Himself knew no sin (see: 2 Corinthians 5:21).

3] His death is described as a “sacrifice” (Ephesians 5:2; Hebrews 9:26, etc.)

With respect to sacrifices, guilt was transmitted and, in consequence, life was taken as the penalty due (see: Leviticus 1:5). As Robert Dabney says concerning the Old Testament sacrifices which prefigured Christ’s sacrifice, “these bloody sacrifices were intended by God to symbolise the substitution of an innocent victim in place of the guilty offerer; the transfer of his guilt to the substitute; satisfaction for it by the vicarious death, and the consequent forgiveness of the sinner (Leviticus 1:4; 14:21; 17:11, et passim.)” (Christ our Penal Substitute, page 88).

CAB wrote:
Refuting Penal Atonement to UK John/aka "HELPS":
.......
Summary: Thank God for the “precious” blood of Christ- the “sprinkled” blood of Christ- the blood of “the new covenant”- the blood of “the eternal covenant” (1 Pet. 1:

And why did you choose to reply in a different thread?

1] Christ is said to “bear” our sins (Isaiah 53:1 Peter 2:24).

To bear sins is not only to assume responsibility for them, but also to undergo the punishment due to them (Leviticus 20:17 cf. vv.18-20). Francis Turretin observes: “to bear sin is the same thing as to bear the punishment of sins” ('Institutes of Elenctic Theology', volume 3, page 429).

2] The penal nature of Christ’s death is implied some key references to it.

He was delivered “for our offences” (Romans 4:25), the preposition “for” in the Greek is dia - “because of, on account of.” This can only mean that these offences were the cause of His death.

The same meaning is in the propositions of 1 Corinthians 15:3 – “for our sins” (huper – “in behalf of, for the sake of”), and 1 Peter 3:18 “suffered for sins” (peri – concerning, because of), and Matthew 20:28 “a ransom for many” (anti – “because of, instead of.”

[URL=http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&ved=0CDUQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.salisburyemmanuel.org.uk%2FPenal%2520Substitution%2520The%2520Testimony%2520of%2520Scripture.pdf&ei=uwD0UsiQB8af0QWH4IHoDg&usg=AFQjCNFRvghkxBCtmVHh06kQMFvjBcvDtg&sig2=jpicUfL_lMfqldjWCxcHmw&bvm=bv.60799247,d.d2k]]] Penal Substitution by Malcolm Watts [/URL]

And

[URL=http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=6&cad=rja&ved=0CFMQFjAF&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.chapellibrary.org%2Ffiles%2F7513%2F7643%2F3386%2Fsubsfg.pdf&ei=uwD0UsiQB8af0QWH4IHoDg&usg=AFQjCNFEtbLookObQnGtgrhlQut-QW78iw&sig2=7Q_EIxJgpy5wVQIQc6wc9A&bvm=bv.60799247,d.d2k]]] Free Grace Broadcaster on Substitution [/URL]

Armed with this you might just be able to discuss the subject with a modicum of knowledge instead of waffling on a subject that is way above you.

B.Rith wrote:
1) This is more "Baptist" juvenile contempt as we have observed previously. Debate seems to bring out the beast in them. Something worth remembering.
2) Interesting that a religious tradition which was invented in the year 1521 and only from then developed into the Baptist denomination today, NOW castigates the ceremony which has been in existence since Bible times, and obviously emerged from those Christians of the time who sprinkled and sprinkled babies.

B.Rith wrote:
Now come on you know very well the Baptists don't do Covenant.

Some more teaching on the Baptist view of covenants:

[URL=http://www.reformedbaptist.co.uk/PM%20Covs%20Lecture%201.zip]]] Contrast of the Covenants 1 [/URL]

[URL=http://www.reformedbaptist.co.uk/PM%20Covs%20Lecture%202.zip]]] Contrast of the Covenants 2 [/URL]

[URL=http://www.reformedbaptist.co.uk/PM%20Covs%20Lecture%203.zip]]] Contrast of the Covenants 3 [/URL]

The presbyterian view is flawed to the core, and displays a carnal Jewish mindset. The exact opposite to the mindset inculcated by Christ and his apostles.

John for JESUS wrote:
You're right. It spreads fast like a virus ("revival") and then leads to death. As traditionally Calvinist areas of the world prove. Maybe it is a symptom of a different problem. If alot of people don't believe, maybe Calvinism is a way to deal with that sad truth. The Calvinist know longer has to worry about it because what will be will be.

John for JESUS wrote:
Instead than saying "Calvinist Revival" in the article title, shouldn't it say "Calvinist Plite" or something? The mention of Calvinist infiltrating churchs without being honest about their agenda brought back bad memories! A sure way to kill a church is have it turn Calvinist. Just look at Great Britian and the New England states for proof.