Dear DD Question: Can a person righteously speak "harshly" to someone they love?
'Get thee behind me, Satan' was a bit harsh to Simon Peter, don't you think? So did that mean Jesus didn't love him?
'I am about to spew (vomit) you out of My mouth' seems a bit harsh to the Church of the Laodiceans, and it is simply not the language one would rightly expect Jesus would use with saved individuals, is it?
But don't stop there as it is written: (18) I counsel you to buy from me gold refined by fire, so that you may be rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself and the shame of your nakedness may not be seen, and salve to anoint your eyes, so that you may see. (19) Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline, so be zealous and repent. (20) Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me. Revelation 3:18-20
I don't know about you but I will take it Jesus Himself just told these "Religious Hypocrites" that He still loves them and they desperately need to repent or the consequences will be truly terrible for them.
Harsh to say, "Please don't strain out a flower pot with no real love in it."
DD wrote: Those who oppose the Truth of the Gospel described by (for space here) the 'DOG'
DD If you are willing, first it is Scripture itself that describes the True Grace of God and goes way further than a beautifully made flower pot (please this is to illustrate NOT insult NOR too offend; BUT to Thank God for ALL His Grace)
And one would be correct to wrestle with matters of: 1. The Depravity/Fallenness/Inability to Save one's self from sin 2. What terms does God have regarding those He saves (repentance & faith certain bear here) 3. The scope of the Availability of the Atonement and who by a personal Sovereign Work actually comes to "Have the Son" as in 1 John 5:9-13 4. Is God's grace totally irresistable or not (seems Scripture require us to deal with pride, humility, desire, acceptance, knowledge and CONSCIENCE and who God offers His grace to) 5. Is it that the saint persevers, or God wonderfully keeps those who belong to Him
Grace would also deal with issues of prayer, Bible study to handle accurate the Scripture, and of course Sola Scriptura and who actually is the Sole Authority on what Truth is and is not; and if one is willing what LOVE is or isn't as well
Kev, in my words, replying to your concern about LOVE
Another Michael wrote: Living dangerously here It is heartbreaking some will think they are believers, claim to be but their lack of Love (the Greatest Commandment and the 2nd) will turn out to be a house built on sand Reference Matthew 7:13-27 I weep for them who take joy in hating the born-again children of God, and for that matter the lost as well
1 Thess 3:12,13
Dear Kev It is my opinion/observation that any genuinely born-again individual will have both the reality of the Love of God poured out in their hearts by the Holy Spirit and instant perfection in this? NO! An ongoing process of sanctification to genuinely live this Love out in one's life
For anyone who is taking seriously the wonderful commandment of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ to love others, the prayer the Spirit moved Paul to write:
(12) And may the Lord cause you to increase and abound in love for one another, and for all people, just as we also do for you; (13) so that He may establish your hearts without blame in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus with all His saints. 1 Thess 3:12,13
Is a beautiful and so needed prayer to be praying, because the Love of God is at the heart of our faith and obedience
John UK wrote: Bro, it is a marvellous passage of scripture, full of helpful information, in leading a soul to Christ, and blessing the saints. This particular verse was used by an Irish preacher to illustrate the simplicity of Christianity, in my own conversion experience: 1 John 5:12 KJV (12)Â He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. It matters little where a person is converted, how they were converted, through whom they were converted, or which church was involved. The big question is: Do we have the Son of God or not? And what does it mean to "have" the Son of God? Romans 8:9 KJV (9)Â But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. & Col 1:27
Living dangerously here It is heartbreaking some will think they are believers, claim to be but their lack of Love (the Greatest Commandment and the 2nd) will turn out to be a house built on sand Reference Matthew 7:13-27 I weep for them who take joy in hating the born-again children of God, and for that matter the lost as well
John UK wrote: What an amazing Saviour is Jesus! Such love and grace! What a Great Light! He lightens every man that cometh into the world. Seeking and saving the lost through bent sticks like us.
Brother John, I have been doing a dangerous thing ... thinking
Doesn't the Word of God, Scripture tell us:
(9) If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater; for this is the witness of God which He has testified of His Son. (10) He who believes in the Son of God has the witness in himself; he who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed the testimony that God has given of His Son. (11) And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. (12) He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. (13) These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God. 1 John 5:9-13
It might be really unsafe/get one stoned to say: Show me anyone who twists a straight up in context reading of Scripture is simply wrong.
I will hold that God is Love And God willing I will Joyfully tell people that
John UK wrote: Oh, a sort of ecumenism between those who believe the doctrines of grace and those who preach against the doctrines of grace. Yes, I see now. Thank you.
Brother John, Personally I don't care if you were accused of signing a teenage girl's year book any accusation that anyone could ever throw at another human being (valid or invalid) pales in light of the Blood of Jesus Christ that He willingly shed for our sins
His Blood matters! And if you are good enough or bad enough that He had to go to Calvary to purchase your salvation, who in the world (or would hell be a more descriptive word) to think you are just not good enough for me?
And I trust the Gospel of Jesus Christ is the Power of God for salvation (real change from the heart out) for anyone of us who believes, to be changed by God and for God
Now if I would accused you of anything I think it would be that you are guilty of believing that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and that He died and rose again for a wretch like you (not trying to malign you, just give the reality of the matter)
time to sing again https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CDdvReNKKuk
B. McCausland wrote: Repression of freedom of speech contributes to the making of a monochrome site, which in this case is of a neo-ultra-calvinist antinomian tendency, and this at the expense of anything, Christian character included.
Dear B. McCausland I also appreciate your post It reminds me of: "For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery." Gal 5:1
And how the part of circumcision was attempting to force that on the Gentiles
IMHO Liberty, freely giving God worship, not because we are forced to but because we want to is precious to God
ladybug wrote: AM, your refusing to answer the questions tells all we need to know. Your tactics are the exact same as J.UK, strange. Eph. 5:25 leaves NO doubt as to whom Christ died for and who He loves, it's summed up in ONE word --- 'the CHURCH'. Not nearly as complicated as the Arminians try to make it, it's impossible for them to utter the truth found in this verse alone, for it destroys the 'free will', and the universal new age 'god loves everyone and desires to save all and would, except for that pesky 'free will' thingy'. That text alone proves Finney, Arminius, the RCC/Jesuits, Billy and Franklin Graham and a whole HOST of others to be liars and deceivers.
Almost ready to go.
Was that shedding of His blood for the Church, before or after they were the Church?
Would He refuse anyone, still a sinner, who trusted His Blood shed for them, to become added to His body?
Good Grief, Ladybug please don't strain out a gnat and swallow a camel whole
ladybug wrote: I won't respond to any comments from J.UK or AM until either of you address the questions already on the table.
Dear Ladybug, Ouch that seems kind of harsh, and IMHO dictatorial ... kind of like you have already put me (and perhaps John UK) on trial, declared us guilty
When the truth is we don't belong to you. And since you've mentioned the Blood of Jesus Christ, you may not like this but I belong to Him, He purchased me lock, stock and barrel with His Precious Blood
I for one would kind of appreciate it, if you respected that fact
As to the Blood; I love talking about the Blood of Christ I thank God for the Blood Jesus shed for a sinner like me
But at the moment I am about to leave the house so I will get back to you later.
AND If anyone would like to hear an excellent encouraging sermon on the BLOOD let me recommend:
... having difficulty putting into words my appreciation to God for the Blood of His Son Jesus Christ given for my salvation .... the staggering humblying immeasurably important Truth that IMHO the Holy Spirit brings through C.H. Spurgeon in this sermon
Kev wrote: Answer Ladybugs questions. If you donâ€™t answer then I will just assume as I suspected that you are dishonestly handling the word of God and care not for truth.
Kev Just a brief question to you Would you dare tell Ladybug the same thing
Feel free to thoroughly read what I, this imperfect man has posted and examine it honestly with Scripture in context
and I trust if you are honest while I am not in the camp of Calvinists you will see the Truth does matter to me, and IMHO others as well who are not bowing to the interpertations dictated by "men" but certainly not caring for what men like PINK, or the RCC, or others have done with it
BUT far more important is the TRUTH IS IMPORTANT TO GOD; Him we should fear and love, trust and worship (serve) and we need to be born again and filled with and led by His Spirit (not Popes, Catholic or Protestant) in this
Since you are into asking questions: the quote attributed to Luther ... good or bad?
Rodney K. wrote: @AM: I thought that I had made myself clear concerning the 10 articles. But since you are asking again, let me try again to make my position clear.
Rodney K. in Tennessee Okay, you dislike Connect 316 But that was why I wanted you to examine the 10 Affirmations and Denials. I basically like them, but then I am not in the SBC so my interst was more for the Gospel's sake than SBC politics
As to "Calvinists" (or "Calvinist-types") there are some I thoroughly like such as C.H. Spurgeon, Paul Washer, Ryan Fullerton (2 of which the SBC would do well to hold onto and work with) but others who remind me too much of PINK whom I perfer to avoid Romans 16:17,18
Even "Calvinists" have problems with some self-identifying themselves as "Calvinists" here is an example: http://www.romans45.org/articles/hypercal.htm
So, IMHO Sola Scriptura is great and wonderful
The next step (or one of) once one is born again is: How to Read The Book: Thoughts & Counsels on Better Bible Reading by Brian Borgman here on SermonAudio https://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=723101624236
MS Replying; my heart's in evangelism desiring people to hear the Gospel and be saved, Then Prayer & Reading the Bible, and be grounded before debating
Kev wrote: Isnâ€™t that what I have seen you do time and again on here?
Kev Please do think again who takes and twisted Scriptures to mean something different than a child would understand hearing and reading it straight up for themselves
the example is of course: John 3:14-16 God loves everyone and has provided Salvation for whoever believes or PINK God really doesn't love everyone, only the elect
IMHO what a terrible thing (PINK's interpretation to fit his version of Calvinism) to twist up the minds of 8-12 year olds with
Testimony: Having been raised RC, I am well aware spiritual dictators, Popes whether Catholic or Protestant really hate people getting a hold of Sola Scriptura for themselves, where their Loyalty is to Jesus Christ and the Word of God; not to any "Denomination" or Man made Systematic Theology (ism)
Dear Ladybug, I have it on the good authority of God's word, and found it to be True; that He is Good and Ready to Forgiven and abounds in mercy to all who call upon him. So, if you are troubled and under conviction for rebellion against His Word, perhaps for failing in Loving as He commanded us, perhaps pride and arrogance; Repent confess it to Him receive His mercy and joyfully put all the mess behind you
MS wrote: Since Pastor Voddie was brought up.. His sermon ...
Why I Choose to Believe the Bible is far more foundational to Sola Scripture than the one you, MS, referred to
AND I have a bit of testimony to go along with this message ... if you are willing to hear it
Recently a woman, who has a brother in a Trinity denying and Hell denying cult, requested that I check out a meeting of this cult, she had received an open to anyone invitation to attend.
I went ... providential got there late as I was involved in a minor traffic incident where a man ran into the back of my car
This prevented me from speaking to anyone before walking in on the meeting already in progress
Their first speaker went essentially line by line and point by point through Voddie Baucham's message (not on Romans 9)
When he was through I confronted him, and he told me I had missed his giving full credit to Voddie's message, despite disagreeing with him on many things and how he liked what he said about the Scripture and thought it well worth repeating
Then do you know what happened with the second speaker?
Well he ingeniously took verses either/or out of context, twisted & proof texted to fit the cult
Brother John Let me comment briefly now and in more depth later
(1) The Gospel Message he gave is IMHO very good, not perfect but very good
with words anyone with a heart to witness to the lost might rightfully listen to, think about, pray over and study the Scriptures to confirm, refine and make solid and sound our own telling of the Gospel
(2) Given by an imperfect and flawed messenger whose friendships and associations (and omissions in what he preaches; like warning of Rome) have contributed to hindering people in their faith or left them vulnerable to the exploitation of wolves in sheep's clothing. Primarily I am thinking the RCC and Protestant Liberals
I would present this message with a disclaimer, that the preacher is imperfect BUT the message, his pointing to the Cross and of Salvation in Jesus Christ is well worth the listening to. So, listen and don't stop there, go deep into the word of God
Ouch, this wasn't as brief as I initially thought ... God willing, I will be doing some thinking and praying and might add anything worthwhile that may need additional comment, later
AND Yes, God can use it in His Sovereignty, and others like it, to save souls
John UK wrote: Yes indeed bro. Is it often down to a faulty gospel, where sinners are not exhorted to make a decision? Jesus is clear enough: Luke 14:25-33 KJV
Amen! Discipleship is indeed costly; and Praise God! He freely gives Salvation to those who receive Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior
But as hard hitting/convicting as Jesus' words are to us in the verses you quote, they are still words a child can understand without the need of a university level religious education
And the mark of a genuine disciple is of course LOVE
If I may be so audacious; all men will know we are "good dirt" (aka His disciples) by our Love for one another. John I fear/weep some have wandered away from this conviction taking captive their conscience
Some talk about "their will being freed in Christ," okay, is it? Let them show the truth or not of their theology in Love for God, His Word, His people, the Lost and even for their enemies
John UK wrote: "In any discussion of free will, it is important to always identify which of these broad kinds of free will is being discussed
Brother John, Perhaps It might be better to discuss dirt in regarding Sola Scriptura
1. Hard beaten down soil upon which the word of God has no effect can be hard for a variety of reasons. Sin but IMHO worse "Religious Tradition" like the Pharisees who were so set in their interpretation of the Scripture they might be called loveless hypocritical religious legalists out to impose their religion on others
2. Rocky Soil where hurtful, damaging persecution and opposition to the word of God cause/force/intimidate/bewitch a person to abandon the Truth they have heard for the fear of man; which then bears no fruit ... Love, Joy, Peace, Prayer, Zeal for the Gospel, Compassion on the lost to know Christ
3. Among thorns the word of God has been heard but is now choked out by others things, other desires/priorities and loves
4. GOOD SOIL Hears the word, understands it, bears fruit with perseverance .... similar to the quote attributed to Luther; unless you can convince me by Scripture and Sound Reason, my conscience is captive to the word of God, here I stand I can do no other
Rodney K. wrote: The invitation to look was to all. Only those who looked were healed. Only those who willed to look, looked. Only those who believed, willed to look. Those who did not believe - did not will to look - did not look - were not healed. How does this correspond to the gospel presentation: The invitation is to all. Only those who come to Christ are saved. Only those who will to come, come. Only those who believe, will to come. The problem is, men are born unbelievers. Unless the Holy Spirit grants them faith, they do not believe - they do not will to come - they do not come - they are not saved.
Rodney K in TN If you have a mind to Would you care to honestly and prayerfully check out the 10 affirmations and denials in
ladybug wrote: Did you not address me because of my comment?
Dear Ladybug, but I did address you because of your comment. In my words here you have continually claimed God doesn't love everyone/only loves the elect/the Sacrifice of the Cross somehow isn't available for everyone
So my objection to your "teaching" isn't some kind of rabbit trail but simply an imperfect attempt to hold what Jesus actually says in John 3. If that isn't okay with you perhaps as a teacher you might want to check whether or not you are actually teaching and encouraging Sola Scriptura
BTW You might not think it, and honestly it isn't the easiest thing, but I still love you. You are a human being made in the image and likeness of God who Jesus Christ died for.
Rodney K in TN Again thank you for your post as to me a real test of the genuine Biblical theology of Salvation is whether or not a young child can understand it, And yours they certainly can. Others seem to have a theology so complicated and nit picking that even with a university level education what they are teaching in my words has to be forced upon people
ladybug wrote: Why don't you address the scriptures already given?
Dear Ladybug, because at this time you seem to be evading Scriptures that bear directly and greatly on what Jesus said to us in John 3.
He is the One who said: (14) And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, (15) that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. (16) For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:14-16
And even though Nicodemus mentions his inability to return to his mother's womb and be born physically all over again, in this passage there is no mention of the relationship of husbands and wives
But, and feel free to point it out if it isn't there, Jesus emphasizes how absolute essential it is that a person be born again.
Is that sufficient reason, for someone who presents themselves a teacher who seeks correct men, to comment on the brazen serpent?
Lurker, no it doesn't say everyone will be save but it does say those who believe, whoever believes