Christopher000 wrote: Good morning, Watcher... "Indeed Ladybug"...just curious if you have read the commentaries, recently or in the past? Were you agreeing with the commentaries on the topic, or opinions being heavier than biblical proof? I know you're all about constructive criticism and growing personally and spiritually because you've said so several times. You should be aware that whenever you're in disagreement with anyone on pretty much anything, you use condescension and sarcasm in your delivery to let others know how foolish they are for considering anything other than what you have already figured out. Do you think that's constructive for continued discussion, or does it cause a person to take a defensive posture; shutting down what could have been productive, and maybe even edifying?...
Thank you for the constructive criticism. Noted. I'll bow out now as I always do. I don't have the stomach to continue this farce. As for being loving and sensitive when I speak: I tend to speak the way I do because I know the time is short and sugar-coating anything never works. It's called love Christopher. I know in this day and age it's strange, but at least it's genuine.
ladybug wrote: It's also interesting to read the commentary on 2 Samuel 12:23, especially from John Gill, Matthew Henry and Matthew Poole. Although I agree we are born sinners, I am in agreement with the commentary I read concerning infants. The bible is not specific on this issue, so opinions are heavier than biblical proof.
Indeed Ladybug. My only contention with anything regarding these "secondary" issues is they have the potential to take one's focus and attention off of God and place it on self. Many theologians believe babies are cute and innocent and each and everyone of them cannot give one shred of biblical evidence. We might as well throw out imputed sin, original sin, all have sinned, and have fallen short of the glory of God...etc. What good is scripture if we don't lean on it and use it for our support?
As Ladybug said, I won't engage you anymore. I don't consider you an enemy, just someone with too much knowledge and not enough humility.
Nonetheless, two questions. If you believe your grandchildren are pure, holy and without sin until the age of accountability, then if they died right now, would they go heaven? And if so, then what's the point of Christ's death and sacrifice?
You are so smart Lurker, anyway, here's some more of my feeble attempt. Hope you can stomach it.
This does not mean that his mother bore him illegitimately; rather, his mother had inherited a sin nature from her parents, and they from their parents, and so on. David inherited sin from his parents, just as we all do. Even if we live the best life possible, we are still sinners as a result of inherited sin.
Being born sinners results in the fact that we all sin. Notice the progression in Romans 5:12: sin entered the world through Adam, death follows sin, death comes to all people, all people sin because they inherit sin from Adam. Because â€śall have sinned and fall short of the glory of Godâ€ť (Romans 3:23), we need a perfect, sinless sacrifice to wash away our sin, something we are powerless to do on our own. Thankfully, Jesus Christ is the Savior from sin! Our sin has been crucified on the cross of Jesus, and now â€śin Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His graceâ€ť (Ephesians 1:7). God, in His infinite wisdom, has provided the remedy for the sin we inherit, and that remedy is available to everyone: â€śTherefore, my brothers, I want you to know that through Jesus the forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to youâ€ť (Acts 13:38).
Just a Guy wrote: J4j says... Yes, there are people..
That's the point isn't it? Jesus died to save all mankind from God's wrath, yet because man has the ability to reject the Gospel, those very people saved from hell and God';s wrath are still in hell??!
@Lurker...really? Yes, all people inherited sin from Adam and Eve, specifically from Adam. Sin is described in the Bible as transgression of the law of God (1 John 3:4) and rebellion against God (Deuteronomy 9:7; Joshua 1:18). Genesis 3 describes Adam and Eveâ€™s rebellion against God and His command. Because of Adam and Eveâ€™s disobedience, sin has been an â€śinheritanceâ€ť for all of their descendants. Romans 5:12 tells us that, through Adam, sin entered the world and so death was passed on to all men because all have sinned. This passed-on sin is known as inherited sin. Just as we inherit physical characteristics from our parents, we inherit our sinful nature from Adam. When Adam fell into sin, the result was every one of his descendants also being â€śinfectedâ€ť with sin. David lamented this fact in one of his Psalms:â€śSurely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived meâ€ť (Psalm 51:5)...cont.
John for JESUS wrote: For the record, I don't agree with the Pope that there is no Hell or eternal punishment.
Where it came from was regarding your viewpoints on who Jesus died for. Just because the Bible says 'the whole world' doesn't necessarily mean the whole world. Just as we read in Hebrews 11 (KJV) that Jesus formed the worlds. Anyone taking this verse at face value would assume there are more worlds like ours out there in the universe. We know (or at least can assume confidently) that we are alone and unique in the universe. If Jesus died as a sinless sacrifice for everyone from Adam to the last person to die, then we can safely say that there are those in hell who Jesus died on the cross for. How come? Because, as you would say, they rejected Jesus' offer of salvation. Then someone will come along and say, God is too loving to send anyone to hell, and those who rejected Jesus in this life will have another chance in the next...etc. You see the downward spiral into apostasy? This is dangerous ground. Jesus died for the elect. Period. The rest are destined (Romans 9) for damnation.
Dr. Tim wrote: Really, Jim? You couldn't find another liberal wacko whose ravings you could quote, so you have to quote a pope? You're really scraping bottom now, fella. Maybe you can find some links to political experts like Yogi Bear, or even Snuffy Smith. I'm sure they have as much wisdom to contribute as the yahoos you usually cite.
Yogi Bear would roll over in his grave if he were alive today!
Christopher000 wrote: Nope: "Nobody can know for certain, if they're being completely honest with themselves..." No, I haven't watched the video, but will save the link. Why would I ever do that? Because I don't know for certain, and can only express my opinion based upon what I glean from scripture. I think we all, including myself, need to really watch what we claim to know about certain topics at times when it comes to things that scripture just isn't clear on, and if it's not crystal clear, then anyone who claims to know, is relying solely upon nothing but personal opinion to claim those things as stone cold fact. ...and no, I'm still not a robot.
5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me. Psalm 51.
I agree Christopher, but can't you see how dangerous this thinking is? If babies have some sort of age of accountability, then Christ's sacrifice is not needed. You are a grandparent if I remember correctly, you have obviously seen the raw sin and rebellion of children as have I. No one teaches a child to be that way. It's inherited. It's part of their nature.
John UK wrote: Watcher, you mean this one? "Only Calvinism allows for the salvation of babies who are elect." Well, in case you misunderstood, let us agree that the Bible teaches God chooses some and these are called the elect. We know that Jesus taught that a man's enemies may be those of his own household, so let us trace back in time to when each family member was a baby. And as far as I know, the biblical doctrines of free and sovereign grace, known to some as Calvinism, is the only interpretation of scripture which allows for that to happen. Arminians do not permit that.
Ahh...I see. Yes God knows who is elected to salvation. Agreed. But God still has to save that person in order to justify him, forgive him and make him a new creature in Christ Jesus. I read a quote one time, and it said something to the fact, "The elect are immortal until they're saved.". Something to think about I suppose.
Christopher: Everything you just stated as "opinion" came out as fact. Touche! BTW...did you watch the video?
John UK wrote: Children, babies, pregnant women, all wiped out, drowned to death, crying out for help, none came. The same will happen when Christ comes as the Great King, saying, "Come to Judgment!" Too late, door is shut. Gospel grace is now, today is the day of salvation. Noah preached for 120 years of the coming wrath, and everybody mocked him and his family. But he and seven others were saved!! The entire rest of the population of the earth drowned in the flood!! Mocking men may well find themselves responsible for the death of their offspring. God is always JUST. God always does what is RIGHT. God is altogether RIGHTEOUS.
Agreed. Your previous comment didn't make sense though. Only the elect are saved. This is truth that we must submit to. You have to be saved to be saved though.
this is what should be wrote: Supralapsarianism (historical) 1. the election of some men to salvation in Christ (and the reprobation of the others) 2. the decree to create the world and both kinds of men 3. the decree that all men would fall 4. the decree to redeem the elect, who are now sinners, by the cross work of Christ 5. the decree to apply Christ's redemptive benefits to these elect sinners
Why even children are evil.
Interesting fact. When Abraham pleaded with God to spare Sodom and Gomorrah, there were not 10 righteous souls found in all that population. If children were innocent until some sort of age of accountability, then why weren't they counted as some of the righteous? How about all the children in the days of Noah's flood? Once again, we are allowing our emotions to lead the way and muddy the waters of Scriptural truth.
ladybug wrote: Exactly brother. The power of the cross is dependent on sinners and not God's grace according to the Arminian/Universalist. If Christ died for all, then all would be saved and hell would be empty. Every sin of every person ever born would have been atoned for, no exception. Yet, the bible clearly says those who do not believe are under condemnation. Unbelief was never paid for by Christ for those who die in unbelief. The powerful atoning sacrifice of Christ absolutely secured salvation for every sinner God has chosen before the world began....all praise and glory to God.
Then the natural course would be, "no hell". See the line of reasoning? It's subtle, but very dangerous.
ladybug wrote: John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins How is it the unsaved will die in their sins if Christ paid for all the sins of all the people? Christ says you will die if you do not believe, thus indicating He did not pay for the sin of unbelief for those who remain in unbelief....period. Only those who've been born from above will comprehend this truth. Again, we must apply Romans 16:17 to those who say otherwise, "Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them."
Basically, if one believes that Jesus died for everyone, then the natural course leads one to believe that man has the power to say no when God comes knocking. So who's sovereign afterall?
John for JESUS wrote: How can it be contrary to doctrine if I'm quoting out of the Book of Romans like you are?! For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. Romans 6:10 Look at it. He died once for who?
Can we make a distinction between died for all people(as in every person on earth) or died for all people (peoples, nations and tongues)? I do believe there is a distinction. We must be careful in taking the English Bible word for word. Much has been lost or changed in translation.
Jesus died for all people in the sense that any person in any country, any tongue, any race, any gender can be saved through the elect foreknowledge of God. But Jesus did not die for those whom God elected for damnation. That is plain foolishness.
Connor7 wrote: I oft entertain the idea that if could go back in time and tell someone like St, Patrick, "Hey, here is what Ireland will look like in the future." Or tell John Wesley, "Here's what Methodism will be in the future" And I wonder what their reaction would be, can you imagine what their reaction would be? They would no doubt be horrified, but I think the question would be "How?" It's just interesting to think about.
Well...? There's enough Youtube content to build your own. Put away the Coleco Vision and do it!
Dr. Tim wrote: I'll be rich and have a ranch and be a big music star... Probably start a whole new genre. Hickabilly? Before you know it, Watcher and the Lonely Librarians first hit may become a dozen-seller.
Well, I tried to sound like "you-know-who", but I don't have it I think. Hickabilly? I'll bet you used up at least one eraser figuring out that word, didn'tcha?
Connor7 wrote: @Watcher, is the MLJ tapes for sell? If so, what's your offer? I have a typewriter from...I think the 50's or 60's, I need to get it restored, the ink roll is all messed up and I think there's something wrong with one of the keys. Well, I'm downloading sermons on my Laptop, and will put them in my thumb drive, I think that's something that we all should do, because when the persecution hits, I'll still be able to listen to sermons. I recommend going to www.biblicaltraining.com and downloading the zip files of various teachings. I've got lectures by Dr. Daniel Wallace. I've downloaded various sermons, and need to stay on top of that. đź“ąđź’ľđź’˝đź•ąđź“Ľ
Not for sale champ! They'll be worth a fortune one day and I'll be rich and have a ranch and be a big music star...
One day, anything digital will cease to exist and then what?