Obedience to NT "laws" I see probably as you do. Anything from the OT must be done in the same way. I've got to abide in the vine just like anyone else - that's the only way. The thing is - I think it always was the only way, but was hidden in earlier times. King David never attained eternal salvation through law keeping - only through faith in the law giver! His law keeping wad only in gratitude.
I've mentioned earlier that it's taken me ten years to reach this point, so I have never taken it lightly and have spent much time in study. I don't want to end up on the wrong path anymore than any of you. In the end, I've got to go with what I truly believe GOD is saying to me and my family. It's been a scary thing at times because we stand out - yet we've been excited about it along the way (and we still are). To discover many others who've gone along similar paths independently has been amazing. There is no "guru" that's been leading us all astray. It appears to be the Spirit more so. Take it as you will.
Ok. I'm back up from my night's sleep! Good morning all!
I must say that it's very difficult to get across my beliefs in this type of forum. My beliefs obviously differ from most others here. However, I think you'd be surprised how I would hold to so many of the foundational stuff you guys probably do (From more of a Baptist background rather than Presy, etc).
Any of the law I seek to obey, I trust would be in the same spirit that any of you obey the laws you seek to obey - because we all seek to obey what we see as GOD's law! It's out of love for Him, and we receive His blessings. (Don't think this is earning His favor - we are promised in OT and NT that we are blessed for following Him and cursed for not following).
I've listened to many anti Hebrew Roots talks. All seem to assume what it means and then blow it out of the water. (I much prefer terms like Torah Observant to HR.)
John, the first two verses you quoted show that these men were saying that certain things had to be done in order for salvation to be possible. (It is quite possible that the circumcision part had to do with actually becoming a Jew.) Clearly we cannot earn salvation, and that's what the council ruled.
They only gave four rules though, and I believe that these were the minimum requirements for them to be accepted into the synagogues (the rules were to prove that they were leaving the common pagan temple practices of the day). v21 is interesting. I believe it's saying that they will then be able to learn all the rules in which GOD wants them to live by (sanctification, not salvation!). And they were going to hear "Moses" (GOD's Words).
The Hebrew Roots movement: I'd be classified as being in it, but ... there are so many different parts to it (as you could imagine). Some deny the deity of the Messiah, some throw out all of Paul's writings, etc. There are many others, though, that are simply coming to see that the Torah (which means GOD's instructions) is actually applicable to us modern-day believers.
I, and my wife and children, have decided to live this way. We're still only learning. But it's worth considering the truth that our GOD never changes. Does something good become sinful after the Messiah?
It appears that many have taken my apostle Paul comments the wrong way. May I declare that his writings are true and correct. Yes, they can be twisted, but they are for our edification. Let's not twist them, that's all!
Ok, fair enough. But what if it's the old perspective of Paul? One who knew the law better than all of us, and taught it in the light of the Messiah who came to set us free.
MS: I've listened to the Jason Cooley sermons. It sounds all very straight forward doesn't it! However, he argues against things that are clearly so unbiblical - I don't hold to any of the beliefs he says people do (And don't know any others that do). They are straw man arguments.
G'day Dave. The warning is much appreciated. It's taken me ten years to come to the point I have, and I've tried to be so careful not to follow the wrong path (I've got a wife and eight kids that I don't want to lead astray also)!
Interestingly, Paul is the ONLY author of Scripture that we are given a warning about (2 Peter 3:15-17). Through his writings, we can be led into lawlessness. I have discovered that there is another way to read much of Paul's writings that holds true to *all* of Scripture, rather than just the NT portion.
I know it all sounds a little like heresy, and that's why it's taken so long to work through. The whole Bible fits together so much better.
Judaizing most certainly is forbidden in the NT. However, it's well worth taking note of what a Judaizer actually is. Otherwise, what's the point of the warning!?
A Judaizer was someone who wanted gentiles to become a Jew and do certain things in order for them to be saved. They also held to the teaching/tradition of their "fathers" - which is now the Talmud.
Returning to our Father's instructions is not the same thing. Scripture never stated that it is.
That's right, John. The law/Torah never saved anyone, nor was it ever intended to (Scripture never stated that it had that purpose).
Amazingly, people across the world have started seeing these things independently over the past decade (predominantly). I thought I was probably the only one seeing the validity of the Torah for a NT believer when I was reading an old Puritan book on the law, but was amazed to discover there were many other "gentiles" seeing the same thing.
You could check out these websites if you were interested. www.eliyah.com for plenty of articles or www.testeverything.net for videos.
Yeah, sort of like that. We've ended Christmas and Easter and observe the Feasts of the LORD. Other things as well, but it's nothing to do with salvation (although everything points to the Messiah). We do it out of love, as those who love Him will keep His commandments - they are not grievous. It's amazing what we've learned.
Hi John. I've got a feeling we may have discussed this a little in the past.
I definitely hold to the basic Christian doctrines, but have to admit that we are returning to the ways of the Torah. (Don't let that scare you!) Seeing the Sabbath the way we have, I'd find it very hard to go back to Sunday now. I don't hold that against others, but don't think it's right either. I would also find it hard to set two days apart as I work six days a week generally. It was a great blessing when our whole home church decided at the same time to change to the seventh day! (And not all see the Torah issue the same as I do)
4/30/16 4:52 PM
