There is no avoiding the headship. If you avoid the headship of Adam, you also must avoid the headship of Christ. Federalism divides all men into one of two camps: Adam's camp and Christ's camp. And we are either in Adam or we are in Christ. There is no fence sitting with this basic of all doctrines. Is Adam your head or is Christ your head?

Is the subject difficult? Why not begin here and study up on it until you get it. I guarantee that when you get it, you will become more joyful, more worshipful, more zealous, more content, more assured. And you will never ever consider anything you have done contributes any merit regarding your salvation. The federal headship of Adam or Christ discounts that as a possibility. Just as Adam is separate from you in the matter of your being dead in sins and will die twice more in the future, so Christ is separate from you in the matter of your being accounted righteous (justified) and will live for ever in the power of an endless life.

Roman 5:16-18 NLT
"And the result of God’s gracious gift is very different from the result of that one man’s sin. For Adam’s sin led to condemnation, but God’s free gift leads to our being made right with God, even though we are guilty of many sins. For the sin of this one man, Adam, caused death to rule over many. But even greater is God’s wonderful grace and his gift of righteousness, for all who receive it will live in triumph over sin and death through this one man, Jesus Christ. Yes, Adam’s one sin brings condemnation for everyone, but Christ’s one act of righteousness brings a right relationship with God and new life for everyone."

Lurker wrote:
Here's what you are overlooking:
Rom 5:13 For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Imputation of sin by the law. Paul (along with all the Jews) was brought "under the law" on Damascus Road.

As for the expression 'under the law'. Baby boys who were born under the law were circumcised at eight days old. Saul of Tarsus was circumcised when he was eight days old. Therefore.....Therefore......

Therefore......Yes? No? Yes? Of course:

"...but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died." Romans 7:9

Lurker wrote:
If you were serious about teaching me orthodoxy, you'd take the proofs I posted and explain exactly how they don't mean what they clearly say.

Romans 7:9 KJV
(9)  For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

1. The first thing to say is that Paul was never 'without the law' in his entire life, so you cannot take the verse literally and say that he was once without law. I proved this by posting his testimony in Philippians 3:3-9, where he claims that all his life he kept the law as a good Jew and especially as a good Pharisee.

2. Therefore (and don't forget his thoughts changed upon conversion) his assertation that he was alive without the law once, requires interpreting according to what he meant by 'without the law'.

3. Therefore, because he was never without the law in his entire life, the meaning of the expression must be something different from the literal interpretation.

4. Therefore, by necessity, we have to say that he only 'thought' he was spiritually alive, as many today do.

To those who are unable to have a 'normal' church service, I can recommend joining together with as many fellow believers as you can, and have a 'biblical' church gathering, which is an assembly, at which you can be led by the head of the church, Jesus Christ, without any preplanning.

Shortly, I shall be getting ready to do just that myself, and it causes great joy and peace in my heart and mind.

Lurker wrote:
You wrote: "You talk as if sin has the power to 'slay' people. It has no such power."
John, Your argument is with God, not me.
1Co 15:56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
Jas 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
But in your mind, everything I argue for is heterodoxy so you are surely right to deny it regardless of what the bible says. That's your choice.
Take care.

I am wondering what you imagine 'sin' to be, that it has such power to inflict death on all who commit it. It sounds to me like you are leaving God out of the equation.

It is like saying, "Well, this morning I broke the law by speeding, and now I expect that by some sort of magic, that act of lawbreaking will somehow, known only to itself, inflict upon me some sort of vengeance."

Lurker, sin is trangression of the law, and the law-giver is the one who punishes he who breaks the law.

If God had given Adam no law, he would still be alive today. Does that help any?

Lurker wrote:
John, You say sin has no such power to slay which only leaves the law to slay. But Paul said "God forbid". So I'd suggest you make a decision of who/what you are going to believe...... your fallible reasoning or the infallible scripture.

5 I was circumcised when I was eight days old. I am a pure-blooded citizen of Israel and a member of the tribe of Benjamin—a real Hebrew if there ever was one! I was a member of the Pharisees, who demand the strictest obedience to the Jewish law. I was so zealous that I harshly persecuted the church. And as for righteousness, I obeyed the law without fault.

Frank wrote:
Yes brother John, persecution can certainly cause the wheat to be separated from the tares. I can’t imagine anyone wanting to be persecuted, but if it happens those that are should praise the Lord.
Matthew 10:34. "Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35. "For I came to SET A MAN AGAINST HIS FATHER, AND A DAUGHTER AGAINST HER MOTHER, AND A DAUGHTER-IN-LAW AGAINST HER MOTHER-IN-LAW; 36. and A MAN'S ENEMIES WILL BE THE MEMBERS OF HIS HOUSEHOLD. 37. "He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me.
Matthew 5:10 “Blessed are those who have been persecuted for the sake of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. 11 “Blessed are you when people insult you and persecute you, and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of Me. 12 “Rejoice and be glad, for your reward in heaven is great; for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

Lurker wrote:
1. That said, you seem to be settled with an interpretation that says Paul *thought* he was alive before the commandment came but was actually dead in sin. So let's look at some context.

2. What I read is without the law sin was dead. When the commandment came sin awakened and that very same sin slew him. How could that be if he was already dead in sin?

2a. According to God, so long as there is a law set by God, even if it is unknown, the breaking of it will incur the death of the sinner by the hand of God. You talk as if sin has the power to 'slay' people. It has no such power.

cv wrote:
JohnUK, u asked in another post how the US politics affects u? Maybe it doesn't.