MS wrote:
Most have a god they have made with their own mind, and they love what THEY have made.
What needs to be thundered from pulpits is the sovereignty, justice, wrath, supremacy, mercy, and glory of Almighy God.
But most will stand up and declare.."that's not my god, I could never love a god like that".
---
Ye must be born from above to even see the kingdom of God.

I wonder how many would remain even in sounder churches if the doctrine of God and his attributes was preached faithfully?

Isn't that why so many slumber in sounder churches?; why they take holiness so lightly?; why they will not take the gospel into the world?; why they do not attend prayer meetings?; why many of them will not study the bible?; why many plain do not obey the injunctions of scripture? etc...

Truly sad days we live in!

MS wrote:
Here is a good resource concerning Anabaptists.
www.wayoflife.org/database/protestantpersecutions.html
A word of caution concerning SteveR rants, most consider him a roman catholic shill.

Kev, if you read the linked article you may notice that Mama church and her offspring ain't changed much. Stevie boy self identifies as "reformed". (But, as with all self identifiers these days, he's nothing of the sort)! He has a great love for Mama church, and hence the persecuting trait in him is strong.

If you want a perfect scriptural commentary on all this, it is

Galatians 4:29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

Blessings to you MS and Kev.

======================

Hey Rodney

Lurker wrote:
First covenant: Duet 10:16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.
New covenant: Deut 30:6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart...
...
Kev, I'd encourage you to wind up your discussion with J4J. His assurance is in his freewill decision and as long as God leaves him in that darkened state there is nothing you can do to change it. His heart hasn't been circumcised yet.

I debated whether I should use the covenants to demonstrate the point, but decided against it for 2 reasons:

1. Some get confused by covenants (for example Jim Linkson)
2. I didn't want Mr Linkson to go into over drive with his posting links to Dispensations vs Covenants sites

But I see now that 1) doesn't matter and 2) happened anyways. Lol

BTW Good advice to bro Kev.

The condition of all unbelievers is described in the following verse:

2 Cor 4.3,4 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Who is the god of this world and why would he do that? And how would those blinded escape his clutches?

And one final thought for the free will theist.

If as you maintain that sinners have the will to believe of themselves, then why would God work in believers TO WILL and TO DO of his good pleasure (Phil 2.13)? If the will can move toward God without God's help in a sinner then arguing from the lesser to the greater the believer would require even less help to will and do. But then the verse makes no sense.

I do not want to tax readers' patience, so I will leave off for now.

It is easy for someone who believes to acknowledge that God is Sovereign and therefore he can do as he pleases. But, what is noticeable in the case of free will theists is that when it comes to particular verses that deal with God's distinguishing grace, suddenly man's sovereignty trumps God's, and logic has to be turned on its head to nullify the plainest verses.

A sinner is someone who is in bondage to sin, whose mind in captive to the devil, who is at enmity with God, who by nature is a child of wrath, who is carnal and therefore cannot receive the things of the Spirit, who cannot obey God because he is a rebel and hates the things pertaining to the one true God, who is bent on burying the truth, someone who will in no wise seek the true God etc. In short someone who affections, mind and will are all corrupted in relation to the things of God.

Q. Does the sinners will operate independent of his sinful nature? J4 seems to think that it does, whereas the Bible insists that the tree must be made good before any good fruit can be expected.

Q. How does such a person, break through the darkness of their mind and the bondage of their will to sin to turn in repentance to the living God? J4 says not a big problem with his pure and all powerful will

Now the point of Eph 2.8 is to point out not only what is received by grace, but clearly that whatever is so received is NOT of ourselves, but it is the gift of God!!

Read 1 Pet 1.20-22

v.21 "Who by him do believe" By whom? who was being spoken of in the previous verses? Ans. Christ

v22. How did they obey the truth? Ans. "through the Spirit"!

There is no way that they could have believed and obeyed by themselves! Christ and the Holy Spirit were the source of their belief and obedience.

In Antioch in Pisidia Paul in Acts 13 addressed the Jews, but when they turned away, the gentiles besought Paul to preach to them. In verse 48 we read, "And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed." Why didn't they all believe? Here is distinguishing grace in action upon those ordained to eternal life, leading them to believe.

Similarly, we read in Acts 13 of Lydia (v.14) "whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken by Paul". She was a devout Jew, what need then for the Lord to open her heart to attend to these things? Again an example of distinguishing grace in action.

The Bible is God's word, a disclosure of God's mind and so has to be studied with great care and reverence. J4 treats it like an academic exercise, missing the very heart of its teaching on the condition of man and what the Lord had to do objectively in life & at the cross and also subjectively within each soul that is to be saved.

As for the question of "faith", let's turn to:

Acts 18.27 speaking of Apollos says, "And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace:"

Notice how they came to believe - "through grace"!

Let's then turn to the contentious text of Eph 2.8, " For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:"

We have already established that faith was by grace, but Eph 2.8 doubles down on this by insisting that "by grace are ye saved through faith"! Now the contention is over the last part of the verse viz. what is the gift of God? As grace leads to faith and salvation, it should be obvious to the impartial reader that both Salvation and faith are the gift of God.

MS wrote:
After reading your "concern" for the deletion of SteveR vile posts, one doesn't know whether to retch or rotfl..
Shameful.

I think what sc is saying, not that she is judgemental , is that in her considered opinion other posters are just as vile as SteveR in what they write but their posts don't get taken down.

Now what is interesting is that this MO is typical of the woman. She will insinuate, allege, accuse BUT never substantiate. Strangely, a habit that she shares with SteveR! Maybe they're related? Who knows.

John Yurich USA wrote:
Graham may have stated that nonsense but he does not really believe that nonsense. I started watching Billy Graham Crusades on television when I was growing up and Graham has always preached in those Crusades the biblical doctrine of salvation that salvation comes only through embracing Jesus as Savior and trust entirely in Him alone for salvation.

Let me get this clear, Billy is a liar for uttering nonsense he doesn't believe? And that is okay with you?

Which is worse? That Billy has departed from the truth or that he utters nonsense that he doesn't believe?

John Yurich USA wrote:
1.Yes I noticed that but I still don't believe it.
2. Only someone who is off of their rocker believes videos full of lies. 3. Graham must have been suffering from temporary insanity to state that nonsense. Every time I have heard Graham and his son preach on television during Crusades they have stated the biblical doctrine of salvation that salvation comes only through embracing Jesus as ones Savior and trust entirely in Him alone for salvation.

And FYI, Billy ain't changed. He has been preaching the same message since the 60s! There's proof a plenty for those who seek the truth and are not seeking to protect an idol.

You might like to read:

[URL=http://www.wayoflife.org/free_ebooks/billy_grahams_disobedience.php]]]Billy's sad disobedience[/URL]

and

[URL=http://www.wayoflife.org/free_ebooks/billy_graham_and_rome.php]]]Billy and Rome[/URL]

Here are a couple of resources that I found very helpful:

Many years ago BOT produced a tiny booklet by a man called Jack Seaton (who used to minister in Inverness, Scotland) on the Doctrines of Grace, which in brief compass is one of the best presentations I have read. There is now a web version of this at:

[URL=https://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/fivepointsseaton.html]]]Seaton on the 5 points[/URL]

And then there was a gem of a work produced by Nathan Pitchford some years ago which Monergism.com have made into an ebook and you can freely download it at:

[URL=https://www.monergism.com/what-bible-says-about-doctrines-grace-categorized-scripture-list]]]Pitchford on the Doctrines of Grace[/URL]

You will learn a great deal from the way in which they approach the issue and perhaps appreciate also the natural flow of the doctrines from one to another and why all stand or fall together.

Matthew 12:33 Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.

Philippians 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

"There are very few errors and false doctrines of which the beginning may not be traced up to unsound views about the corruption of human nature. Wrong views of the disease will always bring with them wrong views of the remedy. Wrong views of the corruption of human nature will always carry with them wrong views of the grand antidote and cure of that corruption”
J C Ryle

May I suggest Kevin that you lay before J4 the verses that describe the state/condition of fallen human nature and its perils which warranted God our Savior to come from heaven to carry through the great plan of Salvation?

Connor wrote:
...
I feel like I'd be banned from any ministry work if I told anyone how terrible and shameful it is.

In fact I would suggest that it helps those who suffer to empathize with any sufferer, whether it be depression or anything else, which in my book is a good quality in a man intended for the ministry!

In my own life it has been a constant reminder to me of my own frailty and utter dependence on the Lord for all needed strength, joy etc. and I have learned to live on God's promises totally divorced of my "feelings". That in itself is a very precious thing.

You need to think straight, but you are not likely to do that whilst you're actually depressed. You're probably right now stuck on that mental hamster wheel where thoughts just go round and round and there seems no way out.

Irrespective of the type of depression, these seasons of the soul are ideal opportunities to draw close to God in a way that others may never know.

Still praying for you.

Connor wrote:
I am soo confused and burdened with depression, every week, and I don't understand why. I've tried soo hard to do right and to follow Jesus, I beg you to pray for me, I really do need it.
And pray for Carl, I haven't seen him post recently, he struggles as well.

I have been a sufferer from my early teens and understand exactly what you're going through.

Feel free to write me if you're so inclined.

There is a lot to understand about Depression - the various kinds etc and it is important to know from someone who is a sufferer. I know folk mean well when they say about not keeping it to yourself but tell others etc. BUT to tell the truth, it is extremely hard to do that because one does not want to become the centre of attention and also talking or indeed being in company does not take away the feelings of loneliness and depression!

Some grow out of it never to experience it ever again, and others suffer intermittently and yet others are allowed to walk in darkness all their days. You may ask why? The Lord is Sovereign and knows best how to draw us all to himself. If that ain't a good enough reason, I don't know what is.

Anyways, praying for you and for Carl.

s c wrote:
..
..how does excelling at a sport glorify God? Which gift of the Spirit is being employed in such? ..
Blah, blah..

Also into redefinitions?!

1 Corinthians 10:31

Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.

What particular gifts of the Spirit are required in eating and drinking? Duh!

And if we should glorify God in eating and drinking then certainly we should do the same in our jobs. Olympians are doing their job, even if they shouldn't be doing these jobs by your narrow bigoted pharisaical standards. BTW- ever heard of Eric Liddell?

1 Corinthians 6:20

For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

Oh dear! Glorify God in your body? And athletes shouldn't because? Because sc says so? Of course, another woman who thinks SHE knows best for everyone else. How novel.

MS wrote:
....
No joy of the Lord.No understanding of grace and mercy

Ascetics like no competition. They can proudly outdo everyone else in giving things up or denying themselves and feeling righteous for it, even where the Bible doesn't commend or condemn the matter. But, as you rightly point out they are censorious and miserable, and cannot hide their disdain of everyone else who disagrees with their lugubrious outlook on life. Its almost a maxim with them that if it is enjoyable or brings happiness and joy it cannot be Christian!!

I wonder how she knows what a harlot dresses like these days, and also as ladybug points out how did we get onto this subject anyways?

Interestingly, Judah thought Tamar was a harlot because she was fully covered including her face (Gen 38.14-16)!

Ahhhhh, the pet peeves of this Pharisee would be quite amusing were they not so sad.

Re: the Olympics - I do admire the human desire for sporting achievement. I wish Christians would expend as much desire and effort for true holiness and dedicate themselves to it. BTW by holiness I am not referring to sc's definition of a dour existence which consists only of rules like touch not, taste not etc.

How many of us would be able to hold down a job if it was our job to pray all day?

Luke 18:1 And he spake a parable unto them to this end, that men ought always to pray, and not to faint;

Luke 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Mike wrote:
Luke 11:2
"And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth."
So why are his disciples told to pray this way? If the kingdom is already here, and his will already being done in earth as in heaven, would these not be just more rhetorical words?

Colossians 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

That is God's kingdom now, but in future it will come visibly and with power at our Lord's second coming.

1 Corinthians 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

Some appear to be hoodwinked by the Dispy lie that there are 2 kingdoms!

Compare scripture with scripture, please!

Matt 11.12, 13 with Luke 16.16

And then

Matt 10.7 with Luke 9.2

Or consider the parallelism in Matt 19, 23, 24 where both terms appear together.

The Kingdom of heaven and the Kingdom of God are synonymous!

once again wrote:
Your Jim, so called Christian, loves Hitlery.

IOW

Trust not the donkey or the Elephant, but TRUST THE LAMB!