James 1:13-15

13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

But God does allow us to fall and every single thing He uses for our good. God is Sovereign.

Doesn’t seem like God though He should make Paul’s flesh better and better.
2 Corinthians 12:7-9

7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.

9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

Lurker wrote:
Good discussion, Kev. Sounds like we've found common ground again.
Good night.

Lurker wrote:
I see what you mean.... although the second paragraph comes across better. That's probably why I don't subscribe to any CF.
Anyway, what did Jesus say to Paul regarding the thorn in his flesh of which we speak? You will have that thorn in this life. I'll not take it away because it keeps your thoughts focused on Me. My grace is sufficient.

Lurker wrote:
I see that now, Kev. Thanks for pointing that out. But note bro. John clarified it as "lifelong" with which I agree. So I'm guessing we have a terminology misunderstanding which is why I used the word "ongoing".
Main thing to remember, Kev. Ongoing sanctification is for the flesh and the best it will ever get in God's eyes is, as sister MS said, when its laid in the dust.

“the DOMINION of the whole BODY of sin is DESTROYED, and the SEVERAL lusts thereof are more and more weakened and mortified”

Compare to
Rom8
Romans 8:10

10 And if Christ be in you, the BODY IS DEAD because of SIN; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Lurker wrote:
If you check the posts carefully you will find that you are the one who brought up "progressive sanctification". The implication is that the justified get progressively more holy/righteous as time passes. Clearly, that is not what bro. John nor I are asserting. In fact, that is an utterly disgusting doctrine which I'd reject as heresy.

Christopher000 wrote:
Another interesting conversation. I believe God is in control of all things as well, and think we all do; knowing the end from the beginning, while allowing some things to happen, and orchestrating others.
I'm not sure Job would be the best of examples because I view Job as yet another righteous man who,like David, was after God's own heart; a favorite, if I can use that word, and under God's protection as the result, hence, Saran needing to ask permission to tempt him to turn his back and curse God for his misfortunes.
Yep, really long sentence!
Kev, is everything ok on your end? Nothing to do with the conversation, just a feeling. Could be dead wrong, but wanted to ask anyway.

This is the sovereign will of God.
Romans 9:19

19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

So are Christians before they die more sanctified than any other point in their lives?

Psalm 37:23-24

23 The steps of a good man are ordered by the Lord: and he delighteth in his way.

24 Though he fall, he shall not be utterly cast down: for the Lord upholdeth him with his hand.

Do you think God is sovereign? That means he is in control of ALL things?

Question two do you thing God works all things for the good of His people.?

You answered none of my other questions. Maybe your not seeing God works all things after

Isaiah 46:10

10 Declaring the END from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

Psalm 37:23-24

23 The steps of a good man are ordered by the Lord: and he delighteth in his way.

24 Though he fall, he shall not be utterly cast down: for the Lord upholdeth him with his hand.

I believe God works even the backsliding to work together for the good of His people. Do I understand it all no. But God deals with each person differently some progressively and some not, therefore you cannot make a doctrine over it, it is up to the Lord. We say Lord willing.

Romans 9:19

“Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?”

Who hath resisted His will?

The Bible says God works all things not just the good things for the good of His people:

Romans 8:28

28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Sanctified is setting apart, justified is what Christ did in paying for your sins on the cross.

Yes when the word ‘sanctified’ refers to God setting apart it is a finished work. But man setting apart his life to God is a constant thing and Christ is the source of your strength.

What do you tell an old Christian man who once felt on fire to love God with all his heart and now he doesn’t feel so on fire for God? Do you tell him he should love God more and more since he is older? Love God with all your heart and soul is the greatest commandment and most important right?

Sanctification is also seen as a perfect one time thing when it talks about God setting His own apart:

Hebrews 10:14

14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them THAT ARE SANCTIFIED.

John 3:6

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is BORN OF THE SPIRIT is spirit.

A man is not born of the deeds of the flesh but by the Holly Spirit.

Faith is the gift of God not of WORKS I.e I accepted, I gave my life etc...

Ephesians 2:8

“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that NOT OF YOURSELVES: it is the gift of God:”

Grace means unmerited so can a man do something i.e ‘accept Jesus’ and get the GIFT? Read the next verse

Ephesians 2:9

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Can not someone boast if they decided to believe Christ on their own? This comes right back to what Buckeyes was saying that God gets all the glory.

1 Corinthians 1:28-30

28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath GOD CHOSEN, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:

29 That no FLESH SHOULD GLORY in his presence.

30 BUT OF HIM ARE YEE IN CHRIST JESUS, who of God is made unto us WISDOM, and RIGTHEOUSNESS, and SANCTIFICATION, and redemption:

Luke 5:32

32 I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

But the Bible says there are none righteous no not one:

Romans 3:10

10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

But Paul said Christ came specifically for sinners:

1 Timothy 1:15

15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save SINNERS; of whom I AM CHIEF.

Who makes one a sinner? That is the question, I guess it is all those who have been shown their sin.

What is the context of the verse I gave above that Christ came not to call the righteous but sinners:

Luke 5:31

31 And Jesus answering said unto them, They that are whole need not a physician; but they that are sick.

Maybe someone said God hates all workers of iniquity?

Jesus cast them to hell:

Matthew 7
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never KNEW YOU: depart from me, ye that WORK INIQUITY.

How come Christ didn’t know them He is all knowing. Search the word ‘knew’ hint:Adam knew Eve.

Or maybe God said:

Psalm 5:5

5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.

7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

8 AND WHEN HE IS COME, HE WILL REPROVE THE WORLD of SIN, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

9 Of sin, because THEY BELIEVE NOT on me;

Dr. Tim wrote:
Glad you made the correction, Chris Triple Aught. The Non-Inspired Version (NIV) is definitely full of it.

19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been OF US, THEY WOULD NO DOUBT CONTINUED WITH US: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

Why will they not leave the faith? Because they are kept by the power of God:
1 Peter 1:5

5 Who are KEPT by the POWER OF GOD through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Jesus is the finisher of our faith:
Hebrews 12:2

2 Looking unto Jesus the AUTHOR AND FINISHER OF OUR FAITH; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Jesus confirms/strengthens you unto the end:
1 Corinthians 1:7-8

7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:

8 Who shall also CONFIRM you UNTO THE END, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

God is able to keep you from falling:
Jude 24

24 Now unto HIM that is ABLE to KEEP YOU FROM FALLING, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

Romans 1:16

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Preaching is how the Gospel is delivered:
1 Corinthians 1:21

21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

God must command the light to shine out of darkness to reveal the Gospel to us:

2 Corinthians 4:6

6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

The Holy Spirit must bring the Gospel with power:

1 Thessalonians 1:5

5 For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake.

Notice the wording to us that are being saved:
1 Corinthians 1:18-31

18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

To put it simply in the experience of man you are to repent, surrender etc.. but the Bible states that when you in fact do these things it is God working in you and I myself am quick to give God the glory 'for without Christ I can do nothing'. By your statement sounds very much like you have the Spirit of God working in you. He has given you a new nature. I am just like you when it comes to sin. Pretty much everything you said has been my experience as well. I am also plagued with bad fleeting thoughts this is my THORN.

God uses our flesh to turn us to Him:
2 Corinthians 12:7-9

7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a THORN IN THE FLESH, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.

Here is the PROMISE spoken of in Ezekiel 36
Deuteronomy 30:6
And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy SEED, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

We see who the SEED are in Deuteronomy and the PROMISE:
Galatians 3:29

29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's SEED, and heirs according to the PROMISE.

We see what circumcision symbolized which is the circumcision of the heart which makes one in covenant with God:
Romans 2:28-29

28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Philippians 3:3

3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

Circumcision of the heart is the new birth and I believe this is the promise which is the hope of man: Christ in you the hope of glory.