Frank wrote: Pilgrim! I rarely go so far as say someone isn't saved. But as you know I will do that if I am convicted to say so. But, if anyone could find fault with your testimony I would say they are seriously confused or not saved. It is that clear. Perhaps not clear enough to make it a kind of litmus test, but I would not fellowship with anyone who questions it. P.S. I truly don't even remember the wording the fellow used when I was saved, but mine was instantaneous.
Amen brother and fellow pilgrim. Sure, God loves you and sent his Son to die for you, and all your sins are paid for in full.
He predestinated you; he called you; he justified you, and will one day glorify you. And all the antics of the evil one cannot change these things. Demons can deny the work of grace in you, but God's work is finished and secure. And if God is for you, who can be against you - without incurring the wrath of God.
Romans 8:30-31 KJV (30)Â Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. (31)Â What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
B. McCausland wrote: Surely, It is fascinating to see the Hypercalvinist and the Arminian position come to terms to admit to the two wings Scriptures hold about converting truth. The sad thing is that usually passages quoted are butchered in order to support a particular take. E.g. the Greek word for 'whosoever' (G3956) used in John 6:37 is the same used in John 3:16, which means 'all that' ... say believe, come, looks or whatever.
Interesting point, Sister B. Thank you. Maybe that is why some preachers use the Good News Bible.
John 6:37 GNB (37)Â Everyone whom my Father gives me will come to me. I will never turn away anyone who comes to me,
John 3:16 GNB (16)Â For God loved the world so much that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not die but have eternal life.
Frank wrote: Your thoughts on how election and grace work are the same as mine. Election is true, and any repentant sinner that comes to Christ will be saved. They are both one and the same. If you are elect, you will come and if you come you are the elect. The elect will be given knowledge of Christ and what His atonement means and they will come. We just have no way of knowing who those are. "Everything" is by God's grace!
Amen and Amen, fellow pilgrim, and what a wonder it is, that God should so choose me as to ensure that instead of allowing me to self-destruct, he rather brought me to Christ, to my knees, believing on the gospel and seeking his grace and mercy, the forgiveness of sins, and crying out, "God be merciful to me, a sinner," as Jesus illustrated in the Bible, turning from sin to serve the true and living God, and asking Jesus into my heart (whatever that meant), and having been born again by the will of God and by his grace, I went running and leaping and praising God, because after five days of seeking him I was given full assurance of faith, being filled with the Spirit, and was able to cry out, "Abba, Father," having been reconciled to God by Jesus Christ.
Dr. Tim wrote: John, re-read what I actually said. How can anyone who is not elect come to Jesus and be saved? How can anyone who has come to Jesus and been saved not be elect? And I still say, as does the Bible, that ANYONE who comes to Jesus in repentance and faith for salvation will be saved. No amount of scripture twisting and Greek slinging will ever convince me otherwise.
Doc, watch my lips:
"I still say, as does the Bible, that ANYONE who comes to Jesus in repentance and faith for salvation will be saved. No amount of scripture twisting and Greek slinging will ever convince me otherwise."
I don't have a problem with that. The Doctrines of Free and Sovereign Grace claim that, as should all Christian men and women.
Now, "How can anyone who is not elect come to Jesus and be saved?"
They cannot. They do not wish it, and so they never come. They are not elect, therefore they never come, they never seek after God. So I agree with you.
Now, "How can anyone who has come to Jesus and been saved not be elect?"
It is impossible, for it is only the elect who will come to believe and come to Christ and are saved." So I agree with you.
Dr. Tim wrote: As I was saying, whosoever comes to Jesus and receives salvation from Him IS elect.I canâ€™t imagine why this is so hard to understand.
Dr Tim, there is a whole world of difference between sinners coming to Jesus because they ARE elect, and God electing sinners BECAUSE they come to Jesus. You hold the latter, I hold the former.
Not all the former are saved, and not all the latter are saved. Salvation is dependent on the sovereign will and purpose of God. And none that are saved will ever fully understand the mysteries of God. Anyone who believes they do reminds me of the devil who wished to be like unto God.
We really need to take our place in humility, and that will only happen if the Lord gives us an Isaiah 6 experience of his greatness and our foulness. Apart from something like that, self-rightness will always be there somewhere. Even righteous Job needed that experience, and it caused him to repent at the close of his book.
Phillip Mezzapelle wrote: I just Emailed BLM and asked them if the life of an African-American baby still in the womb matters. Doubt it though if they will have the courage and decency to respond. On a number of occasions I have asked them what MLK would think of BLM. Also if the lives of the African Christians, who are subject to torture, imprisonment and death on a daily basis matter. Still waiting for a response.
We could all pray that it has an effect, even if they don't respond, Philip. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.
Lurker wrote: It has, John. But, as I'm sure you'll agree, God doesn't use a cookie cutter to stamp out identical replicas of His servants. Some of us are toenails while others are ears and knee caps and so on. But we all fit together in one body to serve His calling and purpose and all the more so during these troubling and dark days many of us believe are very near the end of days. So each of us are obliged to follow the course we believe God called us to walk even though it differs from others. Hope that makes sense.
Thank you, and yes, it makes perfect sense. If all walked that way, no-one could gainsay us with God's approval.
Now what I have done for Bro US and Dan is to rewrite the paragraph 7 without the negatives. It helps.
Paragraph 7. Worthy receivers, outwardly partaking of the visible elements in this ordinance, do then also inwardly by faith, spiritually receive, and feed upon Christ crucified, and all the benefits of his death; the body and blood of Christ being spiritually present to the faith of believers in that ordinance, as the elements themselves are to their outward senses.
Brethren, read carefully, and see some glorious things there. But only to people of faith; this is why many miss out.
Unprofitable Servant wrote: Thank you for your response John. Thanks for your input James and Lurker. Your answer now looks very similar to my 8/1/2020 9:58 AM post John We agree obviously then on that. It does appear different that what you implied in early responses, sorry for the misunderstanding.
No worries bro. Now my question was:
John 6:53 KJV (53) Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
So, brother, however you interpret the eating of his flesh and drinking his blood, you will still have to do it, or you have no life in you. So how and when do you eat his flesh and drink his blood? Thank you.
BTW, if you want to check out the 1689 Baptist Confession of Faith, Chapter 30, paragraph 7 on the Lord's Supper, it might help you with the answer.
BTW, if any other brethren or sisters are partaking of the communion to no benefit, it will help you to also check out the whole of Chapter 30. Don't forget that this confession was arrived at by consensus of over 100 Baptist pastors whose work was to teach the word of God to their flocks, being appointed by God for such a thing.
James Thomas wrote: John, This will be my last one on this so Here's the jist of it all in the Luke 14 context and how I see it. Luke 14:33 So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.
I fully agree with the statement that when believers get together in an informal setting, around a table, with open Bibles, with the intent of looking carefully at the word of God, in the presence of Jesus the head, and with the help of the Comforter, great good can come, along with a deeper understanding of scriptures, in the context of the body of Christ, and spiritual fellowship which can be a foretaste of heaven.
The one who put me on to the possibility of this was Dave from Oz, who shared with the forum of his multiple hour meetings at his home and the amount of scripture they got through, compared to the normal 60 min 'church service'.
Today, as usual, I shall be overseeing a four hour meeting of saints, during which time we shall seek to be led by the Spirit in Bible studying, taking the communion together, praying together, showing concern for one another, and discussing the mission we are engaged in. I have never in all my life experienced such joy in meeting with fellow Christians, and commend the format to anyone.
No-one need neglect their church to accomplish this, as the day of fellowship is not relevant. Just get together whenever you can and submit yourselves to the authority of Jesus Christ, having no agenda.
Lurker wrote: I could tell you in one short sentence the results of my studies but that wouldn't profit you. The blessing is in the journey of discovery which was the purpose of my comment.
Thanks for that, Lurker.
Can I ask you if your discovery has produced a practical benefit to you? This is really all I am interested in. I never do anything these days for curiosities sake, I desire to be more fruitful, more holy, more happy, more pleasing to the Lord, more submitted to him, more sacrificial, more blessed, more used of him, better in character, more powerful in service, a better example, a good mentor, more prosperous, and so on.
As I read paragraph 7 of the 1689 Baptist confession, I do see a huge benefit of taking communion, when taken correctly, instead of merely going through the form, without the faith which really and spiritually connects us with the Lord Jesus Christ, with his body and blood, and all the benefits which come from that direction.
Lurker wrote: Here, at Israel's entering the Promised Land, God compares rain (upper water) to His doctrine and speech which circumcises hearts. Learn what God's doctrine is and you'll learn the significance of the elements of the Lord's table which are a figure of the reality
Lurker, I shall be more than pleased to hear what you have to say about the significance of the elements of the Lord's Table. This is the very thing I shall be turning to next, as I mentioned earlier, why have two elements if they both refer to the same thing? I shall be separating the bread from the wine, as I believe it has a different significance from the wine.
In the meantime, Bro US, I have kept my promise to answer your questions, and would love to hear your response. BTW, paragraph 7 is the one I am focussed on, and it is rather special, making the communion a source of great blessing and spiritual growth.
I have to turn in now, and tomorrow is my meeting day, but I shall have a few minutes to check in at breakfast time, and then it will be later on in the afternoon.
Paragraph 6. That doctrine which maintains a change of the substance of bread and wine, into the substance of Christ's body and blood, commonly called transubstantiation, by consecration of a priest, or by any other way, is repugnant not to Scripture alone, but even to common sense and reason, overthrows the nature of the ordinance, and has been, and is, the cause of manifold superstitions, yea, of gross idolatries.
Paragraph 7. Worthy receivers, outwardly partaking of the visible elements in this ordinance, do then also inwardly by faith, really and indeed, yet not carnally and corporally, but spiritually receive, and feed upon Christ crucified, and all the benefits of his death; the body and blood of Christ being then not corporally or carnally, but spiritually present to the faith of believers in that ordinance, as the elements themselves are to their outward senses.
Paragraph 8. All ignorant and ungodly persons, as they are unfit to enjoy communion with Christ, so are they unworthy of the Lord's table, and cannot, without great sin against him, while they remain such, partake of these holy mysteries, or be admitted thereunto; yea, whosoever shall receive unworthily, are guilty of the body and blood of the Lord, eating and drinking judgment to themselves.
Paul's life was wholly taken up with Christ, not living for himself any longer. Personally I do not call that dung. He did refer to dung in his testimony in Philippians, but that referred to all the OT and old covenant privileges, not the teaching of Jesus Christ.
2 Corinthians 5:15 KJV (15)Â And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
Every Christian is to live wholly and solely for Jesus Christ, not for themselves any longer. This is called 'under new management' and involves handing over the reins to him, being a good steward of all he gives.
If men and women will not have this man reign over them, it will not go well for them on judgment day.
Paragraph 3. The Lord Jesus hath, in this ordinance, appointed his ministers to pray, and bless the elements of bread and wine, and thereby to set them apart from a common to a holy use, and to take and break the bread; to take the cup, and, they communicating also themselves, to give both to the communicants.
Paragraph 4. The denial of the cup to the people, worshipping the elements, the lifting them up, or carrying them about for adoration, and reserving them for any pretended religious use, are all contrary to the nature of this ordinance, and to the institution of Christ.
Paragraph 5. The outward elements in this ordinance, duly set apart to the use ordained by Christ, have such relation to him crucified, as that truly, although in terms used figuratively, they are sometimes called by the names of the things they represent, in other words, the body and blood of Christ, albeit, in substance and nature, they still remain truly and only bread and wine, as they were before.
BTW, because of limited characters, I have removed the texts which go alongside these paragraphs. So if you want the link to the full works, you've only got to ask.
James Thomas wrote: Per the context St. John, That is a specific group of people that was being spoken to.... not all people.
St James, in my Bible it says great multitudes. And then...
Luke 14:31-33 KJV (31)Â Or what king, going to make war against another king, sitteth not down first, and consulteth whether he be able with ten thousand to meet him that cometh against him with twenty thousand? (32)Â Or else, while the other is yet a great way off, he sendeth an ambassage, and desireth conditions of peace. (33)Â So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.
Oh sure, for many it is all too much, expecting such a sacrifice. And there I was thinking salvation was a free gift, and now Jesus wants so much from me. It is grossly unfair, and I'm not sure I could go along with that.
Matthew 19:21-22 KJV (21)Â Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me. (22)Â But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.
This has been repeated many times in the history of the church. Jesus costs too much.
Allow me the privilege of thrilling your heart by showing you what conclusions over 100 pastors arrived at concerning the communion in 1689. Such joy.
CHAPTER 30; OF THE LORDâ€™S SUPPER
Paragraph 1. The supper of the Lord Jesus was instituted by him the same night wherein he was betrayed, to be observed in his churches, unto the end of the world, for the perpetual remembrance, and showing to all the world the sacrifice of himself in his death, confirmation of the faith of believers in all the benefits thereof, their spiritual nourishment, and growth in him, their further engagement in, and to all duties which they owe to him; and to be a bond and pledge of their communion with him, and with each other.
Paragraph 2. In this ordinance Christ is not offered up to his Father, nor any real sacrifice made at all for remission of sin of the quick or dead, but only a memorial of that one offering up of himself by himself upon the cross, once for all; and a spiritual oblation of all possible praise unto God for the same. So that the popish sacrifice of the mass, as they call it, is most abominable, injurious to Christ's own sacrifice the alone propitiation for all the sins of the elect.
James Thomas wrote: Faith is not the human ability to reason and make informed decisions.
St James, why then does Jesus tell us to make informed decisions before becoming a disciple?
Luke 14:25-30 KJV (25)Â And there went great multitudes with him: and he turned, and said unto them, (26)Â If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. (27)Â And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple. (28)Â For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he have sufficient to finish it? (29)Â Lest haply, after he hath laid the foundation, and is not able to finish it, all that behold it begin to mock him, (30)Â Saying, This man began to build, and was not able to finish.
1 Corinthians 10:20 KJV (20)Â But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils.
This is during his discourse on the Lord's Supper. Note,
"and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils; as all wicked men have, in the commission of any lust, sin, or immorality; and as all idolaters have in their superstitious practices, and idolatrous worship; and if grace prevent not, will have to all eternity in everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels; wherefore the apostle would have the Corinthians flee from idolatry, and all appearance of it, and abstain from eating things offered to idols, **of which they could not eat without having fellowship with devils**; this he says, to deter them from such practices, which must be very horrible and shocking, and bespeaks in him great care of them, and affection for them." Gill
Now Bro US, you see why I say there is far more to the communion than we have ordinarily been taught? There is the Lord's Table and a Devilish Table, and at the latter, the partaker fellowships with demons.
Therefore, at the Lord's Table, the partaker fellowships with........?