Mike wrote:
Regeneration does follow faith. One cannot be saved before faith.

Mike wrote:
Are we not being distracted away from these questions by thoughts of "systems"? It is a bit curious that the questions aren't being addressed. If a system includes the answers, they should be in there someplace. How did a totally unable dead man, who did not yet have the Spirit, receive and obey instruction?

I choose B.

What is your choice Mike?

If you isolate the text from the rest of scripture as with the dispensationalist/hyper-dispensationalist, you could conclude A.

Mike wrote:
Are we not being distracted away from these questions by thoughts of "systems"? It is a bit curious that the questions aren't being addressed. If a system includes the answers, they should be in there someplace. How did a totally unable dead man, who did not yet have the Spirit, receive and obey instruction?

A) Cornelius' own power and ability
B) God's sovereign power and grace

I choose B.

What is your choice?

If you isolate the text from the rest of scripture as with the dispensationalist/hyper-dispensationalist, you could conclude A.

JD wrote:
Are you real sure you want to cite David Cloud as an expert witness?
http://www.wayoflife.org/fbns/fbns-index/calvinism.htm
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And why is everyone suddenly trying to change the subject away from Acts 10 and 11 and points I have made?
Okay. here is the deal.

In order to counter any argument systematically, you must first have a system to start with.

Your system sets out to prove man's ability and power to draw himself to salvation and that man is overall sovereign in salvation, you know the first cause. That JD has been your aim the last few days here concerning Cornelius.

Our system sets out to prove God's power and ability to draw sinners who are lost and totally depraved to repentance, faith and salvation and that God is sovereign overall, you know the first cause of all causes. That has been our aim.

I found that rather interesting myself that he would equate the wind with the believer, when in the New Testament thr Greek word for "wind" pneuma is commonly translated "Spirit" thus in most cases, not all, referring to the Holy Spirit, but never to that of a believer. Thus he is attributing the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit to man.

Going with your definitions, of which I agree with them, applying that to the parable of the soils. (Luke 8) We see four types of ground. The field is the world and the soil represents the human heart. Look at the 4th ground in v15 "But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience."

Since we know from scripture that the nature of the human heart is deceitful and desperately wicked, what has to take place before that heart can be considered "good" and "honest"?

Wouldn't you agree that preparation needs to be made by the farmer or the land owner to till the ground and plow it. It needs to be proken up. The soil needs work before the seed is planted to be productive.

Thinking Christian wrote:
By the way, I noticed on another subject you would like to get your hands on a copy of the Free Presbyterian Church of Ulster hymnal. I will have a look about for a spare copy somewhere, I know quite a few Free P,s over here in Ireland.
Kind Regards

Faithful Remnant wrote:
Regeneration means this to me....
"born again...not by the will of man...but by the word of God which liveth and abideth forever."

1 Peter 1:23 "Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever."

"not by the will of man" is not included in that verse. However the fact remains that regeneration is a sovereign act of God according to His good pleasure.

Man still, because of his sinful nature, wants to feel that they had a hand in it and worship the creature more than the creator.

The scriptures uses terms like regeneration or born again so that we can relate them to common usage. When a baby is conveived in the womb, did he have an active part in his conception. Some would say yes, that the infant was the first cause of his conception and God was secondary. This is total depravity at its worst, taking glory away from the Creator of the universe and all of mankind and attributing it to himself.

Thinking Christian wrote:
Mr Wolf
2 Cor 5v17.
Regeneration happens at conversion, when we are born in God's family, when we are placed in Christ and made into new creations.
Regeneration means to create anew or create again.

"Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of God, but of man's faith." JDS 1:13.

Three things come across.

1. Man, instead of God secures salvation. by his own merits. (God is no longer God, man is)

2. The will of man overides the wil of God. (God is no longer God, man is)

3. If faith is the effectual cause of regeneration, then salvation is of man and not of the Lord. (God is no longer God, man is)

I have yet to see one Arminian give God glory for working in their heart to bring then to saving faith. I have yet to see one Arminian who would even go so far as to acknowledge the working power of the Holy Spirit to change their heart to see themselves as God truly sees them.

When you are truly humbled by the Holy Spirit JD, you have absolutely NOTHING of yourself whereof to boast. It would compel you to fall prostrate on the ground and acknowledge how much of a wretched sinner you really are and thank Him for His marvelous grace that delivered you from the bondage, power and penalty of sin.

John Yurich wrote:
DJC49:Yes I partake of Holy Communion with the other RCC congregants but I do not believe that the bread and wine are the actual Body And Blood Of Christ.

2 Corinthians "And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?"

2 Corinthians "And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people."

2 Corinthians 6:17 "Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,"

JD wrote:
Now, listen here to me Lone Wolf Paul says in Ga by asking a rhetorical question to these Galatians:
Ga 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Ga 3:5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, [doeth he it] by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
If you want to rewrite the bible to suit yourself, then you will eventually get your reward for it but do not ask us sane people to fall into a trap that is in plain view.
Why do you think Peter would have dissembled with the Judaizers and required the lkeeping of the law if he believed in pre-election salvation. It would have foolish of him.
The fact is he never believed in preelection to individual salvation and neither did Paul, and neither do I.

You post two verses that in essence proves election and predestination, then you claim that it must be a "marvelously convoluted" theology or a theology that is amiss that would teach regeneration before repentance.

Michael Hranek wrote:
Lone Wolf
Seems like you choose to not see.
I will take it on very good authority, the very word of Christ, that God Himself takes joy in, rejoices over the sinner, for that is the word Jesus used, over one lost sinner who repents.
btw One has to have a "marvelously" convoluted theology to claim lost sinners belong to God as His children before repentance.

I will have to defend Michael here. He plainly said that he was not in the RCC when he was saved. Had he stayed in the RCC, he would have never heard the gospel and would have died in a lost state and gone to Hell.

John, in your testimony, you claimed to have been saved in a non denominational church. Why not in the RCC? Is it because they don't preach the gospel. Maybe they preach a false gospel. That is why you weren't saved there if the truth be known. That is where Michael is coming from.

DJC49 wrote:
What you conveniently failed to notice were the 2 parables to which these 2 verses succeeded. In Lk 15:4-6 it was a man who FIRST went after a lost sheep, found it, laid it upon his shoulders rejoicing. In Lk 15:8-9 it was a woman who FIRST lit a candle, swept, and diligently sought until SHE FOUND the lost coin!
Now ... that SEEMS to indicate an Ordo Salutis contrary to your repentance before regeneration formula. Doesn't it.
I think that both Reformed & Arminian camps fail and both often miss the point that regeneration / faith / repentance need not be conceived as chronological steps - many of these "stages" should be seen as distinctions WITHIN A SINGLE PROCESS and that all (in one way or another) depend upon the work of God.

You are correct, many fail to see the significance in these parables. Just who went seeking after who. Jesus came to SEEK and to save that which was lost.

And the nice thing DJC49, Christ accomplished just that.

He did not fail in his attempts as the freewillers would have us to believe.

Michael Hranek wrote:
Lone Wolf
Have you not read...?
Luke 15
7 I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.
10 Likewise, I say to you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Somehow I have to consider as hugely amiss a "theology" that teaches a regeneration before repentance and faith as one regenerated (changed by God and for God) would not need repentance would they.