John Lee wrote: Lurker, thanks for your explanation of the following text. Romans 7:9 KJV (9) For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. Let me see if I have got the drift correct, and if not, perhaps you can clarify. Are you saying that "Paul did not experience any kind of death until the beginning of his conversion on the road to Damascus?"
Yup. That's the way I see it. He was alive without the law all the way back to the stoning of Stephen where Saul is first mentioned and even back to Pentecost for the matter.
I should mention that Amos 9:11 is cited by James in Acts 15:16-17 indicating that it was fulfilled when God turned to the Gentiles in mercy. This should put to rest any question about the timeline the prophecy was fulfilled.
Two points of interest in the Amos prophecy:
"For, lo, I will command, and I will sift the house of Israel"
While I'm not dogmatic about it, this command could be "the commandment" Paul spoke of in Romans 7:9.
The other point of interest is:
"All the sinners of my people shall die by the sword"
Now what did Paul have to say about the sword in Romans 13? If you connect the dots properly, Paul died by it. Did civil government kill Paul's soul? Hardly. But tradition can't be questioned so I'll say no more.
So in conclusion, Paul's soul died as forewarned in the prophets by the imposition of the Law of Moses which worked the imputation of sin for all the Jews. The coming of the commandment to sift Israel marked the beginning of a day of the Lord as spoken of in the prophets.
Isa 13:9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
Much more comes to mind but I'll leave off here for now.
"but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died."
So the commandment brought the knowledge of Paul's sin against God to the forefront his mind. He became guilty before God, as the verse I quoted says, for God showed his transgressions to him. In other words, Paul's sin was imputed to him by God by the imposition of the law for without being under the law he was without guilt before God.
Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
Paul's soul died. But God was merciful as Paul was His chosen vessel and three days later his soul was quickened to life and service to God by the Holy Spirit. And this prophecy came to pass:
Amos 9:9-11 For, lo, I will command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all nations, like as corn is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth. All the sinners of my people shall die by the sword, which say, The evil shall not overtake nor prevent us. In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old:
Okay, so the law works wrath and the wrath of God is (present tense at the time Paul wrote the letter) revealed from heaven. Sure sounds to me that God imposed the law and I'd say it happened at the exact moment Paul was blinded on Damascus Road along with all the rest of the Jews:
Rom 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
Rom 11:7-8 Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear; ) unto this day.
I can understand that this doesn't register with most as the most popular interpretation of the beginning of the new covenant age is Pentecost. So if Pentecost, why would God impose the law just a handful of years later? For that reason this is passed over by most as it's easier to just ignore it than start over. I get it. But then what do we do with all these texts that make a pretty good case that God actually did impose the law beginning with Paul on Damascus Road? If it wasn't the law imposed then what?
So I'm going to move on to another part of the verse but once again out of space.
John Lee wrote: I have something for you to peruse; it is mine own opinion, and I haven't studied it in depth.
Romans 7:9 KJV For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
I wasn't looking for a discussion but it does sound interesting so let's have a go at it. I'll present what makes sense to me and then we can discuss our differences.
"For I was alive without the law once"
I believe what Paul is saying is at the time he wrote this letter there was an earlier time he was not under the law. Of course he knew the law very well, being taught at the feet of Gamaliel, but that is different than being under (without) the law. And how could he be under the law unless it was imposed by God? Consider:
Rom 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
Rom 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath; for where no law is, there is no transgression.
Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness.
I'm going to need more space so if anyone has a mind to, a bump would be appreciated.
John Lee wrote: 1) Lurker, the composition of the human is something I am not well up on. Is he bipartite or tripartite? Body and soul or body, soul and spirit? Can the soul or spirit die? How do you kill a soul?
2) All I can say is that when Adam sinned, he died. I believe that is perfectly biblical, even though he lived for several centuries after that point, and then he died. Therefore the two deaths must not be the same but related to the same event of sin coming into the world and death by sin.
1) IMO, Tripartite. The unregenerate have an evil spirit, mentioned many times in the bible, but the regenerate have the Spirit of God.
But, again my opinion, the spirit of man is part and parcel of the soul also referred to in the bible as the mind or heart. This is clear in God's promise to give a new heart of flesh and write his righteous laws on it; kind of like our brain and our thoughts.
2) So here's a thought using your reasoning. Adam died when he ate and he died again when he was old. So was his second death the same as spoken of in Revelation 21:8? The lake of fire?
Another instance: Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
Paul's body didn't die, so what did? Does it matter?
John Lee wrote: My apologies, Lurker. I thought you were merely rehashing the debate we have had many times before. But I see you are interested in the different Bible versions, and no doubt you will elaborate the point in your response to my answers. Thank you. Here are the answers. 1. He died. 2. His right relationship with God (spiritual death). 3. Yes, it matters. If you wish for more detail, please ask, but I can't guarantee I will be able to do that.
Thanks for your reply.
I mentioned the death of the body and also of the soul. You chose neither but instead replied "spiritual death".
Is spiritual death a third option I failed to offer and if so how do you differentiate it biblically from the death of the soul?
One other thing. In your reply to sister B. it seems you may be confusing the term dynamic equivalent (sense for sense, eg: modern versions, NLT) with formal equivalent (word for word, eg. KJV). The former basically interprets the bible for the reader while the latter leaves interpretation to the HS who inspired the bible. If I'm reading you wrong I apologize but that discussion is between you and sister B. anyway.
John, Since it's clear you have no intent to answer a simple and direct question, I'll leave it there.
Mike wrote: Adam is either alive or dead. He can‚Äôt be both. What was it God said? You are dust and unto dust you shall return. But it‚Äôs only his body that was made from dust. He became a living soul when God breathed into his nostrils the breath of life. Therefore his body perished and returned to the ground. The life that was in him was from the life that is God, not from the ground. How can that perish?
Hey Mike, My questions for John were in the context of different bible translations. I brought up Adam to demonstrate that straying from the word for word translations can cause problems in other parts of the bible. But to your point.
The KJV says: "the day you eat you shall die"
Since you have long said words have meaning, (I agree); did Adam die the day he ate or several hundred years later or both?
I say both.... his soul died the day he ate but his body died much later.
Ezek 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
Just for the record, I believe Adam died according to the warning God gave him the instant he was escorted from the garden.
ladybug wrote: Bro. Lurker, She is psycho. Like this Dem - https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2020/12/make-pay-michigan-democrat-cynthia-johnson-issues-threat-calls-soldiers-take-care-trumpers-video/. My goodness, this is insane.
I saw that one earlier. Strange how all the dems were bashing Trump for not denouncing right wingnuts for their supposed violence (which he did more than 20 times) yet they overlook this psycho.
I am reluctant to offer here but I'd recommend Health Ranger Report to learn what is going on behind the scenes regarding all the election fraud/vaccines, etc. The guy (Mike Adams) seem credible imo. Daily hour long podcasts. If you can find the time maybe go back about 8 days and start listening there as each podcast builds on the previous. You can find it with a simple Google search.
ladybug wrote: check this out, Crenshaw rips Pelosi for her hypocrisy, this is excellent - https://rumble.com/vbppu9-dan-crenshaw-ends-nancy-pelosis-whole-career-in-savage-speech.html?mref=23gga&mc=8uxj1&fbclid=IwAR1ea2YLnCtv1sIA-lkUiThkLBIh8NwU0bYK0rkJPzUN461mbz7GIA8uVlI
cv wrote: They're trying to get you to buy the "in 2024." Don't buy it!! They just need to get in now somehow.Because now matters!! If 2024 mattered, then why didn't they want to wait. Trump would've had to go on his own by then. But they're fighting for their life NOW!
CV, What James is saying without saying it is; there is a lot going on behind the scenes that the general public is unaware of. There are a lot of traitors in this country and Trump isn't going to willingly turn this nation over to them. The next 30 days is going to be historic.
Ladybug wrote: Bro. Lurker, I have not seen that. I have heard this virus was around late last year, I will look into your link, thank youūüĎć Lete add this, there's a video of Fauci from 2017 stating there would be a surprise outbreak under Trump's administration, it was telling. Fauci is a ūüźć here's that video - https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zu2Ftcv6u3w
Jennifer Cunningham wrote: Wow I‚Äôm sooo disappointed at so many of these comments. As a true believer in Christ I voted for none, for none represents Him. He‚Äôs already my King I do not seek another in an earthly man. He lost because he‚Äôs full off pride and arrogance which God hates and no one talks about. Everyone who exalts themselves will be brought low
No doubt Trump is a narcissist but unless that is a very recently developed personality disorder; why did God allow him to become POTUS four years ago? Wasn't he equally prideful and arrogant back then and wouldn't God's hate for such remain unchanged?
Just trying to understand your reasoning for saying Trump lost because God hates his pride and arrogance.