The sad part of it is, I don't think this subject will ever come into an agreement with those on the forum.

This debate has been going on for hundreds of years.

I guess we will never know until the King of Kings and Lord of Lords returns.

However in the mean time, I shall stick to my opinion as "justification is based on FAITH alone, which INCLUDES the WORKS of our obedience and reliance of our faith which derives from the Gospel of Yahshua Messiah, i.e. Yah's Savior, the Anointed One.

R.K. that's not quite correct.

Calvin had considered Servetus death long before Servetus was even captured, for Calvin wrote his friend, Farel, on February 13, 1546 (seven years prior to Servetus' arrest) and went on record as saying:
"If he [Servetus] comes [to Geneva], I shall never let him go out alive if my authority has weight."

This was taken from, Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge (Baker Book House, 1950), p. 371.

R.K. you need to get your facts straight.

Three important questions remain: (1) Can John Calvin be Scripturally justified for murdering Michael Servetus? (2) Does a murderous hate, according to Scripture, render one spiritually unable to accurately interpret the Scriptures? (3) Can a murderer be saved according to Rev. 21:8?

1Jo 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

"Calvin had thus murdered his enemy, and there is nothing to suggest that he ever repented his crime.

Kevin

We can't move to Canada, because our government, the Canadian goverment, and the Mexicaian goverment are in the process in establishing one big America.

Check out the trans-highway running through the heart of America from Mexico to Canada.

In fact I have seen the new coins, which by the way make no mention to God.

Keep the faith in Yahweh, and everything will be all right!

To keep it simple.

like many of us on this forum we are anti-calvin. we speak out on the doctrines which calvin brought into the Church.

Michael Servetus, to keep it simple, wrote a book against Calvin. Calvin hated this. And in his letters, his goal was to destroy Michael.

In fact a gentlemen name Nicholas de la Fontaine, who by the way was employed by Calvin as a secretary, wrote up I believe 40 items against Michael.

These items then were used at the trail, in the so-called Christian Calvin had Michael burned at the stake.

Therefore, based on the works of Calvin, we who anti-calvin should be burned at the stake.

One interesting point about Michael, has he was being burned alive, he look up to heaven and ask the Heavenly Father to forgive these men of their sins.

I ask you, does this sound like a man that should have been burned at the stake?

You make mention of Titus 3. However we must read Chapter 2, which sets the stage for chapter 3. Keep in mind that there were no chapters. This was a letter. Man broke up the letter into chapters.

We read in Tit 2:1 "But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine:
Tit 2:7 In all things shewing thyself a pattern of good works: in doctrine shewing uncorruptness, gravity, sincerity,
Tit 2:11 For the grace of Yahweh that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Tit 2:15 These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee."

Everybody knows that Paul did not contradict himself in his letters. When Paul wrote Titus “Put them in mind to be subject to principalities and powers, to obey magistrates, to be ready to every good work,” Titus knew that those in charge were to obey the commandments of Yahweh!

Your Church has no choice but to follow the government, because your church is a 501c-3. Your church is not a church, but a business!"

Maybe you need to listen to my sermon on Romans 13.

But when we look on the money system here in America, we read, “In God We Trust”.

1Sa 8:10 And Samuel told all the words of Yahweh unto the people that asked of Him a king.
1Sa 8:15 And he will take the tenth of your seed, and of your vineyards, and give to his officers, and to his servants.

Mat 17:24 And when they were come to Capernaum, they that received tribute money came to Peter, and said, Doth not your master pay tribute?

Mat 17:25 He saith, Yes. And when he was come into the house, Yahshua prevented him, saying, What thinkest thou, Simon? of whom do the kings of the earth take custom or tribute? of their own children, or of strangers?

Mat 17:26 Peter saith unto Him, Of strangers. Yahshua saith unto him, Then are the children free.

Mat 17:27 Notwithstanding, lest we should offend them, go thou to the sea, and cast an hook, and take up the fish that first cometh up; and when thou hast opened his mouth, thou shalt find a piece of money: that take, and give unto them for Me and thee.

Note the question in verse 25, “children or strangers?"

This is the key to the answer!

But why does Peter say “of strangers?”

Because the land of Israel was controlled by the Romans, therefore the Jews were strangers to the Romans.

But here in America, are we the “children of America” or “strangers of America?”
Children!

Therefore according to Yahshua, as children we are NOT required to pay income tax.

So blast away at Truthful.

I take note that you quoted Gal. 5:14,

"For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself."

Is this what john calvin was thinking when he had Michael Servetus burn at the stake?

Was johnnie calvin thinking on those verses of the Epistles of John in 1553?

Before you calvies/reformies cast the first stone, check out the background of your deceptive leader.

Oh by the way john calvins actions "WHERE SPOKEN LIKE A TRUE SINNER!!!!

One more thought was john calvin thinking about Yahshua's Sermon on the Mount, "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father in heaven is perfect."

Joh 8:44 "Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it."

You are so ashamed of yourself, you can't even indulge us with your name.

Hiding behind the name of a MURDERER!

What right, based in the New Testament, did the murdering john calvin have in the murder of this man?

Who died and made john calvin god. [note little g]

Hey "calvinist" do what lurker does when he wants to search for an answer,
"GOOGLE!"

And the name calling, how childish.

But I totally understand, after all you follow the cult leader, who is a murderer.

This reminds me of the Words of Yahshua.

Joh 8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Joh 8:45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.

Joh 8:46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?

Joh 8:47 He that is of Yahweh heareth Yahweh's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of Yahweh.

Yahweh Bless,

On October 27, 1553 John Calvin had Michael Servetus, the Spanish physician, burned at the stake just outside of Geneva for his doctrinal heresies.

Do what! The man of the popular doctrine of "once saved, always saved" (known in certain circles as "the perseverance of the saints") violated the cry of the Reformation -- "Sola Scriptura" -- by murdering a doctrinal heretic without Scriptural JUSTIFACTION!

Now keep in mind that this is something Calvin wanted to do for a long time” "If he comes, I shall never let him go out alive if my authority has weight."

During Servetus' trial, Calvin wrote: "I hope that the verdict will call for the death penalty." But why did Calvin have a death wish for Servetus?

"To rescue Servetus from his heresies”, Calvin replied with the latest edition of his, “INSTITUTES OF THE CHRISTIAN RELIGION” which Servetus promptly returned with insulting marginal comments. Despite Servetus's pleas, Calvin, who developed an intense dislike of Servetus during their correspondence, refused to return any of the incriminating material."

He was seized the day after his arrival, condemned as a heretic when he refused to recant, and burned in 1553 with the apparent tacit approval of Calvin.

1. Total Depravity
Mankind is totally depraved, but Yahweh has extended His common grace to all so that every man or woman can search and find Yahweh.

2. Unconditional Election
Before the foundation of the world Yahweh elected all souls to salvation but most of those refuse His offer.

3. Limited Atonement
The atonement of Yahshua Messiah is open to all men and women everywhere and is limited only by our refusal to be saved.

4. Irresistible Grace
The "common grace" [prevenient grace] of Yahweh is given to all men and women everywhere and it is irresistible, but saving grace can be refused by a stubborn heart.

5. Perseverance of the Saints
Once saved, a person will always be saved unless by defiant, continual, purposeful, rebellion he or she refuses Yahweh's grace and chooses apostasy. Though relatively rare for a truly saved person, apostasy is possible.

First, then, let us remember that the righteousness which we are considering is not that of a human, but of a heavenly tribunal; and so beware of employing our own little standard to measure the perfection which is to satisfy the justice of God.

“Who among us,” says the prophets “shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings? He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly,” &c. (Isa_33:14, Isa_33:15). Let whoso will come forth. Nay, the answer shows that no man can. For, on the other hand, we hear the dreadful voice: “If thou, Lord, shouldst mark our iniquities, O Lord, who shall stand?” (Psa_130:3). All must immediately perish, as Job declares, “Shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his Maker? Behold, he put no trust in his servants; and his angels he charged with folly: How much less in them that dwell in houses of clay, whose foundation is in the dust, which are crushed before the moth? They are destroyed from morning to evening” (Job_4:17-20). Again, “Behold, he putteth no trust in his saints; yea, the heavens are not clean in his sight. How much more abominable and filthy is man, which drinketh iniquity like water?”

On October 27, 1553 John Calvin had Michael Servetus, the Spanish physician, burned at the stake just outside of Geneva for his doctrinal heresies.

Do what! The man of the popular doctrine of "once saved, always saved" (known in certain circles as "the perseverance of the saints") violated the cry of the Reformation -- "Sola Scriptura" -- by murdering a doctrinal heretic without Scriptural JUSTIFACTION!

Now keep in mind that this is something Calvin wanted to do for a long time” "If he comes, I shall never let him go out alive if my authority has weight."

During Servetus' trial, Calvin wrote: "I hope that the verdict will call for the death penalty." But why did Calvin have a death wish for Servetus?

"To rescue Servetus from his heresies”, Calvin replied with the latest edition of his, “INSTITUTES OF THE CHRISTIAN RELIGION” which Servetus promptly returned with insulting marginal comments. Despite Servetus's pleas, Calvin, who developed an intense dislike of Servetus during their correspondence, refused to return any of the incriminating material."

He was seized the day after his arrival, condemned as a heretic when he refused to recant, and burned in 1553 with the apparent tacit approval of Calvin.

If you were to read Elliot's post "The Lord's judgement has been going on since the foundation of the world."

I once again have ask the question to the calvies/reformies how did Yahweh know those souls before the foundation of this world? How did Yahweh know who was good and who was evil? Example Jacob I loved, /Esau I hated. And once again they have no answer!

Once again Read Me, I'm not calling you a reformer. I'm just stated the fact that you have similar ideas has those reformers.

The Bible ( Gods Word) does not contradict itself. Does it?

No it doesn't, but unfortunately His Words are not being taught. What we have today is a watered down Church system traditions of teachings.

Jessica re-read the last part of your verses, "And this we will do IF Yahweh permits." Looks like to me Yahweh isn't finish on these comments, because the calvies/reformers have missed the boat.

They have been teaching false doctrines and when taking to the task can not come up with the answers.

Therefore Yahweh isn't done with them.

I now see, you don't have the answers.

You or no other reformer can explain
the articles of their faith

When I read their statements it reeks of deception.

I see you answered NO.

Then explain to me HOW Yahweh knew who those saints were prior to this earth age?

And how can Paul say, " Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:"

Every soul that was created, is giving a chance to receive the Gospel of Yahshua Messiah.

The saints/elect are those that have excepted Yahshua Messiah.

Yes we are saved by grace of Yahweh. But that same grace is given to ALL, just as Paul writes further down in his letter to the Ephesians.

By the way, when I taught Ephesians on radio it took me 2 programs just on verse 1, because I did not over look the message that Paul sent forth to the saints of Ephesians.

You say that you are not a Calvie, but state "why must WE know everything" as if you are a Calvie.

You make mention of Eph. 1:1. But note verse 13, "In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,"

Did you read that "AFTER". Therefore the souls which heard the truth then accepted that call of the Gospel.

Eph 2:1-2 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

But wait a minute, how can they walk after the course of this world, if the were chosen before foundation of this world!
Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath,

Once again I ask the big question, “How did He know us BEFORE the foundation of the world?”

Take a deeper look at what Paul is saying “He has chosen us”, just as Wayne writes “"Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you” from John 15:16.

In both cases what is being said, “I Yahweh have called you, ALL [not leaving out any of those souls from the beginning of this earth age.” Now note of the following condition “that we [Paul included himself as those sinners of the first earth age] SHOULD be holy and without blame before Him.”

[Sad to say many of those souls refused to accept Him as their personnel Savior.]
“having predestinated [predetermined, IF we accept the condition sent forth by the Gospel]

Wayne M quotes article 2, “Man after the fall begat children in his own likeness. A corrupt stock produced a corrupt offspring.”

What fall are they referring to?

My question is “If Yahweh knew us before the foundation of the world” wouldn’t He realized that a “corrupt stock produced a corrupt offspring/”
When we take a deep look into the reformers, we see mass confusion!