Blimey JD, sounds if you guys in the works based religion have a long wait.

"All those that are justified God vouchsafeth, in and for his only Son Jesus Christ, to make partakers of the grace of adoption; Gal 4:4-5; Eph 1:5.

by which they are taken into the number, and enjoy the liberties and privileges of the children of God; John 1:12; Rom 8:17.

have his name put upon them; Jer 14:9; 2 Cor 6:18; Rev 3:12.

receive the Spirit of adoption; Rom 8:15.

have access to the throne of grace with boldness;Rom 5:2; Eph 3:12.

are enabled to cry, Abba, Father; Gal 4:6.

are pitied, Psa 103:13.

protected, Prov 14:26.

provided for, Mat 6:30, 32.

and chastened by him as by a father;Heb 12:6.

yet never cast off, Lam 3:31.

but sealed to the day of redemption, Eph 4:30.

and inherit the promises, Heb 6:12.

as heirs of everlasting salvation."Heb 1:14; 1 Pet 1:3-4.

Isn't this "good news" JD.
You can receive this promise of Scripture today.
Instead of waiting for it by the philosophy you have received.

Couldn't be plainer JD!!!

God's adoption is not a temporary circumstance. Which was my point below.
And it happened as stated by God in HIS Word = "Before the foundation of the world" - which is where and when the "Predestination" came from.

As for Rom 8:23
the next verse explains
24 "For WE ARE SAVED by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it."

And
Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things HOPED FOR, the evidence of things not seen.

We can trust in a Sovereign God.

Yes Abigail I saw your selected verses below! BUT you were really only posting one word weren't you = "REPENT"

Your ulterior motive was to support the theory of man can save himself, thus repent is a human attribute outwith divine help.

But this oft posted sadly deluded heresy of Rome, does NOT deal with = "Who CAN repent and when is the natural man enabled to repent."

Repentance is a gift of God who by grace provides the sinner with the ability to perceive sin and overcome sin, thus to seek his Saviour.

Nobody can do that without divine intervention in their life, even if you arminian/free will types believe and teach otherwise.

To repent is to forsake sin. NOT just the resolve of a sinful unsaved mind with an apology. It is the change from the old to the new man which requires divine help to do so.

Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are SAVED)

:8 For by grace are ye SAVED through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your SALVATION: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Eph 6:17 And take the helmet of SALVATION, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

I guess this is another example of the precarious nature of arminian salvation by human effort? JD apparently sees the references in the Bible to save/salvation as being temporary, or saved only for now until you sin, or you've got to earn it, or the Lord's promise isn't really for eternal purposes....or..????

This must be why the PreMill's believe they only get 1000 years???

You have put faith - before - repentance.

VIZ
1] I heard the Gospel message = Calling.

2] and believed. = faith

3] I repented of my sins.

"The final answer is: not because Arminians are personally erratic, but because all Arminian positions are intrinsically and in principle unstable.

Arminianism is a slippery slope, and it is always arbitrary where one stops on the slide down.

All Arminianisms start from a rationalistic hermeneutic which reads into the Bible at every point the philosophic axiom that to be responsible before God man's acts must be contingent in relation to him.

All Arminianisms involve a rationalistic restriction of the sovereignty of God and the efficacy of the cross, a restriction which Scripture seems directly to contradict.

All Arminianisms involve a measure of synergism, if not strong (God helps me to save myself) then weak (I help God to save me).

All Arminianisms imply the non-necessity of hearing the gospel, inasmuch as they affirm that every man can be saved by responding to what he knows of God here and now.

The right way to analyze the difference between Arminianisms is to ask how far they go in working out these principles, and how far they allow evangelical checks and balances to restrain them.(Packer)

This is Arminian-Wesleyan heresy.

You have cut God out of the process.
Predestination as you know is taught in Scripture. God's attribute of Omniscient predestination, does not just mean a general foreknowledge of vague and ambiguous events surrounding the church. This is the God of Creation, His predestination is about *HIS OWN*

Election is unconditional based ONLY on the merits of Christ Crucified.

You are basing your election on the merits of sinful human beings who happen to make the right choice. Nothing could be further from the Truth.

Dead in sin in Scripture means spiritually dead - not half alive.

This is Molinism, the Roman dogma of salvation by works.

John 15:16 Ye have NOT chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

Eph 1.4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Of course the correct grammatical use of the english language in the KJV, was written in a time when even the people outside the Church actually feared God.

On the subject of repentance.

Already did!
My 9/19/07 4:34PM refers.
_______________________________

2] Abigail, like other free will arminian types, you appear to be earnestly trying to identify human ability and effort extraneous to God, grace and the Holy Spirit, in the natural sinner.
This is the same old heresy of salvation by works which is proclaimed by the Roman church.

Who is it that you want to do the saving?

Salvation by works as expounded by JD, Michael, Yamil et al, via the free will arminian doctrine, is belief in a lesser god where sovereignty is removed by men who elevate themselves beyond sin, to procure their own salvation. The Church in history has already delivered these heresies to the trash can.

Election and God's choice apparently means salvaion by human effort!

Jesus taught election
Matt20:16 "So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few CHOSEN.
22:14 For many are called, but few are CHOSEN."

1] Thus if there is election/choice by God, - what do YOU think prevents the non-chosen from coming to salvation.
2] Who do you think makes the "choice"?
Ergo the election?

Jesus also taught
Mark 4.12 "That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them."

1] Election before the world began.= Eph 1.4.
2] Predestination by the word itself clearly come before a sinner repents. = Eph 1.5.
3] Calling - Rom 8.30 "Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also CALLED...."
Now obviously JD, the natural man still dead in sin, cannot REPENT since he will have no inclination to do so.= John 1:5 "And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil."

Repentance *IS**Granted*.
18 "....Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life."
Zec 12.10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

God created a perfect world man ruined it by disobedience.

All are guilty in Adam, who with Eve WAS the human race at that time.

And the human race disobeyed and corrupted creation.

The result was death - and how it is effected - came on the scene.

Free will of the sinner is perverted by sin.

I have observed your direction before. EG you said you accepted Total Depravity - But did not see how that prevented free will? I could answer how "Total" is "Total" to you? But no doubt you will have your solution. Clearly you are not one of the Reformed church.

"Repentance" as the initial work of a sinner without election/predest'n/call as you've indicated is not what I read in Scripture.

not for anything worked in them, nor done by them, but for Christ's sake alone;

nor by imputing faith itself, the act of believing, or any other evangelical obedience to them, as their righteousness;

but by imputing the obedience and satisfaction of Christ unto them,
Jer 23.6,Ro 3.22,24-25,27-28,4.5-8,5.17-19,1Cor 1.30-31,2Cor 5.19,21,Eph 1.7,Titus 3.5,7,