Thank you for the best wishes.

Lurker,

All those posting from the Reformed doctrinal persuasion claim to be the "elect" before the foundation of the world. They say they are different than most people on the planet. Most people, they say, are created for the purpose of being destroyed in the day of destruction and have no hope of being delivered from their preordained fate. Therefore, it is not an unreasonable request to ask them how they can be sure they are one of those so chosen to be saved. So far, those who have bothered to answer have pointed to their own righteousness and to their ability to understand Scripture (that they are elect) and to their personal walk with God as being proof. What they have not done is pointed to a place where God has told them they are elect and different and the only ones that can be saved.

I have pointed out how deceitful we are told the human heart is and that the only sure thing in this world is the word of God.

Concerning the judgment that you mentioned. May I recommend two sermons by my pastor, Travis Alltop.

The judgment of Christians is dealt with in his sermon title -

Your Day In Court

For other judgments hear-

Dividing The Judgments.

When you stand before God in judgment he will want a personal testimony. What are you going to tell him?

He says this. His words not mine.

1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

The bible must be involved in your salvation or you are not saved. The bible must tell you that you are elect to salvation. This subjective reasoning will not cut it.

Did you notice Lone Wolf? He is all over the place and some time not making any sense at all. He can not give a verse that tells him he is one of the elect or that he is regenerated.

The Lone Wolf wrote:
"unconditional salvation"???
It is unconditional election, not unconditional salvation. Election is election, salvation is salvation.

Okay, this is brand new. Unconditional election and conditional salvation? This is even more confusing. If the person who has been elected does not meet the condition for salvation, is he then not elect anymore? The question arises. Is there any scenario when an elect person could ever be lost?

The Lone Wolf wrote:
The Holy Spirit is the one who brings you to savingly faith. It is evidenced by the terms I mentioned previously.
However since you rejected the terms above, it is evident that you have yet reached that point of being able to come to faith in Christ savingly.

The Lone Wolf wrote:
Are you willing to humble yourself and empty yourself before God?
Are you willing to recognize your utter total depravity before God of any moral goodness to offer Him in exchange for salvation?
Are you willing to recognize the righteousness of Christ as satisfying God's requirement for Heaven?
Are you willing to recognize Christ as God's satisfaction for justice that he paid on the sinner's behalf?
Are you willing to repent of sin and faith toward God?

But, I do agree with you, salvation does have a condition and it is none of the above. It is faith alone in Jesus Christ. This is the lone condition for us to be saved.

Lets agree here. There is no way under heaven a reformed Baptist is able to be consistent with reformed doctrines in his evangelistic thrust. The prebys, maybe, but not the Baptists.

The Lone Wolf wrote:
With man it is impossible, but with God all thengs are possible.
He needs to come to the end of himself and see himself as God sees him, dead spiritually in tresspasses and sin, lost, totally depraved of any moral goodness to offer up to God in exchange for salvation. He has to come to the point of seeing Christ as the only means of salvation as the satisfaction for God's justice and as payment for his sin debt. Then and only then can he begin to trust soley in the grace and mercy of God for his soul.

Lone Wolf is in far worse shape of the two, if you ask me, but if I believed what he says he believes I think I might want to shoot myself. Read what he wrote. It seems election is not the issue at all, but coming to the end of oneself so he might trust in God's offer of pardon.

Oh; Oh: I see it now. I thought that was rhetorical. I am sorry. But here is the answer.

Jesus made this statement and it has never been amended or altered. He said we must believe in God to be saved.

Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Here what God says: He says we must believe in Christ to be saved.

Ro 4:23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
24 But for us also, to whom it (righteousness) shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

Joh 10:37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
Joh 10:38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

The only safegaurd is to have a personal testimony that at some point in ones life they came to see themselves as offending a thrice holy God by breaking his law and becoming deserving of his condemnation and sentence to hell and casting themselves upon his mercy by believing on Jesus Christ as the only way to be saved from his wrath. They must have a God that cannot lie and has made a pronmise to them that he will save them and that that is the basis of how he will do it. If they have no promise, they have no salvation.

Many men are in hell today whose religious practice far exceeds some who comment on this site.

Christ died for the unjust, 1 Pe 3:18
He died for the ungodly Ro 5:6
He died for every man He 2:9

He has promised to save those that will ask him to. Ro 10:13

Thank you Jille for posting the statement of regeneration. Please do not be offended but I am sure I would not want to show up at the judgment of a thrice holy God with that statement standing between me and hell. If you would be comfortable with it, then I say, hey, we all make our choices and live by them.
_

You wrote;
and JD, I know I am saved, only because God has done the work.

I am nearly sure the Mormon and JW would say the same and I am positive the arminian would. Don't you understand that we need God saying you are saved? "It is God that justifieth." Ro 8:33.

Now, I trust you are saved because God says that whosoever believes the gospel of Jesus Christ shall be saved and that seems to be your testimony.....and you are a member of "whosoever".

"Dr. Lim's point is obvious: many approach the blood of Christ today assuming that God is obligatory in his grace."

It is obligatory if God made a promise that whosoever will may come and take of the water of life freely. He did that! Has bound himself by an oath under the terms of the New Covenant. He is obliged!

Also I read the statement of faith of that ministry and I am not sure a person can be saved under that statement. I hope he can. God knows. I am just stating my personal concern. You may disagree.

Vessels of mercy article says:
(1). If God decides not to work in a man to will and to do according to God's will, He decides to leave the man to will and to do according to his own will. When God effectually operates upon the human will, it is election. When God does not effectually operate upon the human will, it is reprobation.

DJC49 wrote:
You ask loaded questions, JD; questions which have faulty premises within. Like your latest one: your question assumes that God is HAPPY about creating men for the day of destruction.

Pr 1:26 I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh;

Ps 37:13 The Lord shall laugh at him: for he seeth that his day is coming.

Ps 2:4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision.

Re 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

You must remember, DJC49, I have conversed with many here. I know what I have been told.

One probably should look at the context of the above statements, no?

simplesolution wrote:
Why not email him and ask him directly-the ability to do so is part of sermonaudio's service-you can actually contact the church and pastor directly. Simple, eh?

But my question is a fair question I think. I did not make it up that several have told me here on this forum that God has created the wicked for the day of destruction, that he does not love them, that he hates them, that he has elected them from before the foundation of the world to be condemned and because of that he has made no way of escape. Their motto should be, "eat drink and be merry for tommorrow you die".

No, the preacher was just an example of the prevailing doctrine, thats all. I did not mean it to be a criticism of him specifically and I feared some would take my question wrongly.

On the subject of election.

I do not desire this question to be offensive but some things bewilder me. I read the statements of the Calvinists and I have read the exchange between two of them on the subject of "Is it proper to tell sinners that God loves them". I have just downloaded a sermon by one of the most popular speakers on this forum, a doctrines of grace man, and listrened to part of his sermon. He began his message by confirming his position that God will only save those whom he has chosen but he spent the remainder of his time (that I listened to him) lamenting the fact that men will not believe God and because of that they will face the great white throne judgment. I had the sensation that he would break out into tears at times, which is the proper emotion for the lost, but it perplexes me how God can be happy to create the wicked for the day of destruction and hate them while they are on earth but the elect who are admonished to have the mind of Christ, are constantly shedding tears and speaking as if they can be saved if they will but believe?

Does anyone understand how frustrating it is for folks like me to figure this contradiction out?

Help!

Lurker wrote:
Thanks for the recommendation. Good sermon. (Even got your name mentioned!)

The Lone Wolf wrote:
If Jesus was the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world (Rev. 13:8) who did he die for?

Let us try it together!

6 times in the Scripture the phrase "FROM the foundation of the world" is used

3 Times the phrase "Before the foundation of the world" is used.

The prepositions "before" and "from" are not the same and equal and God chose the words carefully to make his points. I suggest you study them carefully and note the differnces.

Here is another usage!

Joh 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

1Co 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

2Ti 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Tit 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

Now, compare this passage to the following one!

Re 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
Re 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

No doubt this city is occupied by the church, because Jesus said we would be with him where he is!

Note

Re 22:3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it (New Jerusalem)

Now, notice very carefully!

Re 21:24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.

What? There are nations, kings, of the earth in the eternal state?

DJC49 wrote:
The sinless/deathless world was never to be!

This is it! Fatalism at it's very worst! God had no contingency plan in case Adam would have chosen to not eat of the tree. Why? Because according to DJC49 and his tribe Adam was created for the purpose of falling.

Talking about a god that fits in a theological box, I think we have found him.
Thank heaven Adam was at the very least one of the elect whom God chose to save, huh?
_

The fact of the matter is that God tells us what is happeniong when sin is taken away and we have the perfect state. The church, the lamb's wife, Re 21:9-10, New Jerusalem, ascends out of heaven (a satelite city) and lightens the nations who dwell in the light of it (The throne of God is there).

Life (perfect life) goes on and procreation continues as well for eternity). It was the plan from the beginning!

Lu 1:33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

Friends and Commentators

My pastor, Travis Alltop, has just had a sermon posted. It is a very excellent message titiled "Fruits of Conversion". I reccommend it as a very edifying message.

http://www.sermonaudio.com/source_detail.asp?sourceid=travis1611