To/or on a certain level you are right, each one of us likes to imagine our own goodness BUT in the Grace of God this comes crashing down in a right use of the 10 Commandments, and the preaching of His word, showing us we are transgressors who in the words of King David, "this man deserves to die" or as farmers on Lewis during its recorded REVIVAL, said things such as "Hell is Too Good for Me"
Respectfully, I cannot say the same thing when Calvinism goes too far and becomes a sacred exclusive cult of those imagining they have special knowledge better than the Faith once delivered to the saints, Jude by the Spirit speaks of.
And let's never forget the true Grace of God that shows to us, reveals to us, convicts us of the Reality of Jesus and Him crucified for us, 'who deserve to die,' for our sins.
Paul who spoke of both election and predestination; determined to know nothing among the Corinthians than Jesus Christ and Him crucified. Ever consider why that was? Could it be in handling accurately and righteously the Word of God that the Person (who we ought to love preeminently btw) and Work of the Son of God, the Son of Man outweighed these real Biblical doctrines in importance?
NeedHim wrote: Spurgeon; George Whitfield said, â€śWe are all born Arminians.â€ť It is grace that turns us into Calvinists.
NeedHim As good as Spurgeon and Whitefield may be it is always good to remember they are but men, and examine everything carefully with the word of God
I would humbly plead with you that a man needs neither to be an Arminian NOR a Calvinist to know, love and serve the Lord Jesus Christ; that man needs a testimony of the New Birth and the filling of the Holy Spirit, to be taught of and by God and to live for Him who died and rose again on our behalf ..... So if one's Calvinism or Arminianism doesn't point him to this kind of faith, there is a problem, a big, big, problem.
Refining your quote, it is grace that turns us into people and enables us to live; joyfully serving the Lord Jesus Christ. God's grace will never turn us away from Him who died and rose again for us to any "ism" no matter how much they are disguised as being of God.
Christopher000 wrote: Well, thanks Michael. Wasn't sure it would make clear sense to anyone but myself. Not an easy topic, for sure.
Christopher000, you're welcome.
In my observation the handling of this rightly or wrongly goes in two different paths 1. Converting someone to faith in Jesus Christ, to love Him and be His disciple. 2. Converting someone to their personal cherished version of Calvinism
Thus George Whitefield, C.H. Spurgeon and others like them prayed, labored, preached, sometimes with people not quite Calvinists at all, to bring men to Jesus Christ Others only to bring them into a cult of Calvinism
Christopher000 wrote: ...door to the eternity that they, themselves chose. I don't know if this makes the sense it should...its pretty early and I'm still a bit foggy. I'm probably the new forum heretic now...ha-ha.
Christopher000 Seems to me you'v done well in wrestling with a doctrine that is hard to see clearly and carefully place in the context of the whole of Scripture.
IMHO people warp themselves and often end up divisive and causing trouble when they extract election and predestination from the context of the whole of the Word of God, especially when they abuse these wonderful doctrines to expel human responsibility, and the sovereign drawing of a person to seek after God, something sinners will not do on their lonesome.
Good and upright is the LORD, therefore He instructs sinners in the way. AND if I may be so audacious, those taught by Him come to ulitmately to find Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior in the new birth.
Watcher wrote: Dave, lease understand, I believe in predestination to heaven. I believe in predestination to hell. You have not provided me one verse to prove your point (regarding the refuting of God predestining people to hell). Why not?
Watcher Are you saying God has made it so that men born with a fallen sinful nature that is in rebellion against God, His authority, and His commandments (inherited courtesy of Adam & Eve) are totally unable to observe/appreciate His existence revealed in: Creation Our Conscience History (especially Israel's) Scripture and in Jesus Christ
Further totally unable to feel any conviction of right and wrong, justice, love, and the guilt of sin?
Now while God is completely sovereign in and over all things, your statements IMHO are enormously lacking and misleading because God repeatedly shows He doesn't act and JUDGE ARBITRARILY but for and with reason, and all the facts and according to His nature and righteousness in His dealings with men both for those He redeems and for those He rightfully condemns
Will not the Judge of the Whole Earth do right? Yes of course!
Know this: "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
Dr. Tim wrote: These clowns got off a perfectly good train because someone was quoting scripture? Sounds like the real nutters were the melting snowflakes who can't bear even a smidgen of truth.
Dr. Tim, yep! A real show of how heartbreakingly deep Satan has his snowflakes brain washed (diseased might be a better word)
Chris G P It seems we are rushing into the day when any kind of Evangelism will be viewed as an evil act of terrorism, sedition, whatever ... even up to being punished by imprisonment, seizure of property, torture (especially to betray other Christians) and death.
I don't know about you all but I do think this is a time when born-again, Spirit-filled Christians need to develop a holy, sanctified sense of humor to absolute refuse to throw any "nutter" under the bus (or train in this case) whether they are soberly sane in their faith of even a bit off - and in a good way make fun of, as Dr. Tim used the word, "Snowflakes" both on the train, in the media, behind apostate and cowardly pulpits, and in government and the courts.
By the way let's pray for the police sent to arrest us, that like Paul when we be hand cuffed and taken away we can use it as an opportunity to love them, pray for and preach the Gospel to them
Unprofitable Servant wrote: Thoughts and prayers for those affected by senseless tragedy in Las Vegas http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-lasvegas-shooting/gunman-kills-at-least-50-wounds-200-in-las-vegas-concert-attack-idUSKCN1C70FU
Yes! Pray Much! As natural men do not accept the things of the Spirit of God, and the continual dehumanizing people; the suppression of the truth every man, woman, girl & boy ever born or yet unborn is made in the image and likeness of God and of great worth to God by people who rebel against and reject God, who reject the fear of God, lays a foundation for the mentality a murderous slaughter is a good thing to some.
IMHO one of the things we so need to pray for ourselves and others is to have a God-fearing AWAKENING in an understanding of the Righteous Wrath of God against all sin and evil and the immeasurable worth He has put on people made in His image and likeness - that leads people to a real serious REPENTANCE of how grieveously we've sinned against our Lord and Savior, for the saints REVIVAL, for the lost a REPENTANCE UNTO SALVATION
Especially pray for pastors and preachers in this, IMHO far to many of them need to get saved themselves and quit playing church.
penned wrote: wonder how russell moore and the cultural marxists that call themselves Christians are going to handle the satanists attempting to force Christian bakers to make a cake to [email protected]@n.
Good Morning Penned, If you don't mind, could you bring me up to speed on Russell Moore with some references I can check out regarding him, what he is doing, saying, writing that merits a warning. Thank You.
Christopher000 wrote: Key word..."uploaded". This disgusting creep isn't only viewing, he is trading, and/or, creating for His deviant buddies across the world, or maybe even restricted to his church buddies though a private Dropbox, Google Drive, etc., link. Interesting how it is that even though their club has been exposed, crimes of massive proportions perpetrated and prosecuted, along the fact that it all continues, the church seems to have fully recovered. The initial outrage seems to have waned and any new crimes exposed seem to be looked upon as, "Eh, whatever, this is getting old...whatever, moving on". Well, tell that to the damaged, abused, frightened children, and their immediate familys.
That's what happens when anyone makes an idol out of their Religion or their Politics, their "god" can do no wrong and must be protected at all cost; and those who point out "gods" made by man either Religious or Political are abominable idols commit mortal sin (deserve to die) for their sin against "their god"
1517 wrote: Not true Jim, that perspective is from the lawyer of the ex husband. The bigger issue is the extreme double standard established here. On one hand the state says murdering a baby in utero is a choice while a mere vaccine is of the upmost importance to the point of threatening jail time for resisting.
Dr. Tim wrote: Another Michael, you are absolutely right that Christians must be about our Father's business in the matter of spreading the gospel, and this I do on a regular basis. I simply have no patience for "preachers" whose only message is one of social betterment (Jackson) or financial prosperity (Osteen). While the world literally goes to hell, these apostles of Satan water down the message and attempt to offer a crown without a cross. I am so unlike my Savior in many ways that I blush to think of my sinfulness, but I do share to some degree His compassion for sinners and His contempt for self-serving religious "leaders." By the way, please pray for me as I preach to the down and out in the hope of seeing them up and in. Thank you.
Dr. Tim It will be an honor and privilege to pray for you, my brother in the South.
I would so love to hear preachers here in NY State and across the U.S. and to the very ends of the earth speak with the kind of conviction you have expressed.
Dr. Tim wrote: Jesse Jackson praised Hefner for his support of the civil rights movement. Meanwhile, I suppose he would say that Adolph Hitler exerted a powerful positive influence on window installers. "Rev." Jackson is a one-trick pony who would say anything for a headline and a dollar.
Dr. Tim Have we not read: "They that forsake the law praise the wicked: but such as keep the law contend with them." Proverbs 28:4
And along with that: "Like a muddied spring or a polluted fountain is a righteous man who gives way before the wicked." Proverbs 25:26
IMHO It is high time for a real repentance among every born again child of God, to earnestly contend for the faith once delivered to the saints, to be seriously about the Great Commission with much fervent intercessory prayer ... especially considering judgment must begin with the house of God, NOT the Playboy Mansion
If anything we ought to cry out to God to supernaturally empower us to where we refuse to let "bunny people" go into the eternal hell, unloved, unprayed for, unwarned, and untold of the Gospel of Christ.
The Value of Sinners, Prostitutes and Drunkards https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4mZsHUs7UsE
Dave wrote: What's worse? The fact he died and knew not Christ, Or that he helped generations of men to disrespect women, treat them like meat and an avenue for countless men's perversion to be satisfied? There but by the Grace of YHWH go I.
Dave OZ Hefner certainly exploited the desires of a man for a fulfilling God given holy sexual intimacy that were not be realized in far too many marriages ... this would be another discussion of the horrid ditch on the other side of the road
I do like the comment in the article: "The sign of the good life is not hedonism but crucifixion. The sign of the good life is not a bunny but a cross."
I don't know about OZ but in the U.S. we have certainly twisted/perverted what genuine Christianity is all about, AND IMHO far too many in our modern churches who would never touch a Playboy Magazine with a 10 foot (3.5 meter?) pole nevertheless abuse the grace of God to consume all sorts of the good things and riches of this world upon themselves ... bigger house, fine car, fine clothes food, prestigious university educations, popularity with the world, fantastic vacations of easy luxury and excitements, the American Dream
In contrast I like David Platt's book Radical https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoicm
Christopher000 wrote: Sorry, final question which I meant to include earlier: In your biblically based opinion, and for the reasons already covered, say divorce becomes inevitable, and ultimately happens...adultery if one were to remarry at some point?
Christopher000 Yes, that is a huge minefield of a question!
In my understanding of His Word; Remarriage, "afterwards" when all the sin, garbage, ones own contribution to the mess is put behind and under the blood and the wounded brother or sister is on their feet again in the faith, serving God, Then only in the Lord, with a committed believing born again sister whose heart is to serve Jesus Christ with and in being a helpmate to her husband ... would not be adultery; and actually honor the mercy and grace of God, and please Him for all the good two God-fearing spouses would bring to each other and His kingdom and family
I hope you appreciate that is enormously different for someone who finds a lover and divorces a grievous troublesome spouse to marry them
penned wrote: as to living with an unbelieving spouse.... would be glad to hear the gentlemen assist on this matter...
the goal would be to win the unsaved spouse to Christ and to be an example before them. and it is no less a marriage just because
Dear Penned I so appreciate your comment, saying it back to you in my words
First and foremost with an unbelieving spouse we ought to seek for, and do all we might rightfully do, that God would save them.
And by the grace and in the mercy of God, we ought to so love them that we refuse to see them go into hell, unloved, unprayed for, untold of Jesus Christ, unwarned of the wrath to come so if they go, may it be over our bodies with our arms wrapped around their legs; but if they are that deliberately determined to despise the love, the mercy and the grace of God then leave them in the hands of God, and go on and give your efforts to God in what will bear fruit.
God help us to stand with and for our hurting brothers and sister, as if it was we ourselves going through the hell on earth an ungodly hateful unbelieving spouse can so often bring - They need our prayers not our condemnation
It touches on the Intense Spiritual War we are in right now Depraved New World - Phil Fernandes (The Impact of Darwinian Evolution on Society) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lG0wn4iHxXY
And our right to earnestly contend (fight for) for the FAITH once delivered to the Saints and how there is a twisted mentality of silence and appeasement among professing Christians that IMHO sabotages our Intercession and our Witness
Brother Christopher000 You will need to prayerfully consider different translations; as in 1 Cor 7; Paul writing by the Spirit talks of having and unbelieving spouse who is pleased (some trans say consents) to live with a believer, they are not to send such a one away ... if they leave a believer is not under bondage
So, how does the unbeliever making it hell on earth apply? technically they 'consent' but are certainly not pleased to - such a case needs wisdom. Some in the never divorce (or worse 'you must divorce your remarriage') would condemn a believer who divorces them ... perhaps in such a case a believer needs to give an ultimatum live peaceably (I want this marriage to be a good one and work) or leave and if you don't I'm filing for divorce (have a real good divorce attorney/counsel lined who knows the laws and is committed to defending the wronged spouse)
some things others have noted might bear here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dVXJj80LNhg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RycRQCSTk48
Country Boy wrote: Please pray that Moore would win. It is something my church and family has prayed for, for a long time.
Dear Country Boy Speaking as a Yankee, I so appreciate all my God-Fearing, Jesus Loving, Disciple making Witnesses of the Risen Son of God, Mighty in Prayer, born again of the Spirit of the Living God brothers and sisters in the South.
Our churches, our country and a lost and dying world on the brink of Woe so needs more of you all both in the North and the South, the East and the West.
So let me plead with everyone who reads this; let's not just Thank God Judge Roy Moore has been elected; let's support him and men & women of like faith in fervent prayers and intercession, that God would empower and use him (them), protect him (them), bless those who are a blessing to him as he seeks to serve and be faithful to Christ and that God would powerfully openly and publicly deal with those who oppose him obedience of faith, his stand for what is right and justice, and of a God-fearing conscience; either saving them or defeating and removing them from being and influence and stumbling block to others. However the Holy Spirit might lead and burden you to pray that God's will might be done.
1517 wrote: Clarification: I am not advocating for non involvement, for each man has his calling, even in politics. But, when politics becomes the object of hope and devotion, as if life depends on ONE person being elected, then the soldier is getting involved with civilian affairs (see 2 Tim 2:4).
1517 Thanks for the clarification
Building on your words my hope/desire is to see Jesus Christ triumph over all his enemies, even to overcoming in politics as part of that
1517 wrote: This runoff and the election in Georgia earlier this year is indicative of how much emphasis and devotion, right or left, Christian or Secularist, has been placed on the Golden Calf that is Politics.
Dear 1517 Oh how I would love to sit down with you face to face and talk with you about how "Seeking First the Kingdom of God and His Righteousness" and "Going into all the world to preach the Gospel of Christ; AND Make Disciples" refines our thinking, our praying and our living.
We are NOT Given FAITH to bury it in the dirt where nobody will see it and steal it from us, but so much rather to take the Treasure God has entrusted to us and preach Jesus Christ as Lord, His Love and His hatred of sin and evil; And the Gospel of His Kingdom, His rule, His reign, what is right in His sight to all the world and into every dark place, even the darkest of places like Politics and Abortion.
By the way: you can pray for me for I am considering contacting my representatives, what specifically to pray for them, what to say or not say to them, especially how to say it. How often to contact them and what are the issue God wants brought to their attention. Much to learn in this lest I take the easy path and fail speak up.