Observer wrote: Just curious Christopher, since he is the one who grants repentance and faith, how does that help you escape your dilemma?
That is an excellent point there Observer. We know the natural man receives not spiritual things and they are foolishness to him. God has to reveal Christ just like Jesus told Peter:
16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. â Christopher I think my last post may of been kind of confusing as I believe the mystery part that I mentioned is about prayer but not Election. I would suggest the sermon MS suggested it is short and answers your dilemma.
This verse on prayer is good:
1 John 5:14
14 And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing ACCORDING TO HIS WILL, he heareth us:
But Collosians 4 is just some of what I do not fully understand about prayer. That is the mystery I was talking about. I just know that God commands us to pray and the secret things belong to Him but God does answer prayers when they are according to His will.
Christopher000 wrote: Hi Kev, what I view differently is that I see personal pronouns here, and God speaking to the individual, while letting us know that we, in and of ourselves, can do nothing.. I don't view those prayers as a work or effort on our part, but a part of our spiritual duty to pray for the lost. God expects us to pray for those lost, and the fervent prayers of the righteous availeth much...
Hey Christopher I was mainly bringing up the other point you brought up which was that God looked down time to see who would believe Him.
I think it is God who causes us to pray.
13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
I like the verse you mentioned it is a mystery how God works in His providence I donât think it is something we can ever comprehend. We are to obey what He has put forward for us to do.
29 The secret things belong unto the Lord our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.
I think this verse fits about these things.
Ephesians 1 is a good read notice in the reading all the instances of âHis willâ
Observer wrote: In other words, if what I describe is the Christ of the Bible, then you would want nothing to do with him despite the pious words "Fall on one's face before Jesus Christ who died on the Cross and rose again to save sinners and Worship Him". Sure I smell TULIPs in the verses you quote. 1 Cor 15:3,4 - who is the us that Christ died for? It is those who have come to believe! Heb 5:8,9 the source of salvation to all who obey him - precisely. Who will obey? The natural man who is averse to the things of God? How does the natural man, who is dead in sins and trespasses come to life without God working in his life? This is the grace that TULIP teaches about. Luke 6:46 - More applicable to you than you think. 1 Timothy 1:5,6 - Discussing the central truths about God's glorious grace in Jesus Christ and how He determined to save innumerable souls from every tribe, tongue and nation is hardly turning aside to fruitless discussion. Your quoting this verse exposes your impiety and shallowness.
How can someone remove sound doctrine from Christ - Dr. Tim it is interesting he would remove the word âBrotherâ Remember what I said happens in these comments.
Hey Christopher I like the position you hold on Election more than denying it exists at all when it is so clearly taught in scripture. I was at the point where you are at today awhile back. Take these verses into account though.
2 Timothy 1:9
9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, NOT ACCORDING TO OUR WORKS, BUT ACCORDING to his own PURPOSE and GRACE, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
Would it be called an âelection of graceâ if it was based on something we would do:
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the ELECTION OF GRACE.
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
Iâm sure there are some other verses as well out there that I donât remember off the top of my head. I think itâs very important that we understand that God owes man nothing and God does whatever He pleases and all that He does is right and just. â Amen backwoods duck Farmer
Connor7 wrote: Ivan, here's an answer to your question: 1. God commands us to pray. I agree with Kev, and if I might turn the tables, what good is it to pray for someone if God already knows what's going to happen?
Good comment Connor and when Jesus prayed He always made a point of the Lordâs will to be done. Our prayers are a way of worship where we can take everything to our Father and we know that God workâs all things for our good and at the end of our prayer we should say with Christ never the less May Your will be done not mine God. We trust in God and we know that Godâs plans for us is better than anything we could ask for! Prayer is to shape our will to the will of God not conform Godâs will to our requests. We know that God answers prayer when they are in conformity to His will.
When we ask for something that is against His will it is in effect saying we know whatâs better for us then God.
We know according to Romans 8:28 God works all things for the good of His people and this includes when God chose to take Mr. Sproul home.
MS wrote: Hi Kev, in God's Providence I was listening to a sermon on 1 Peter 1:2 when your post popped up.. Here it is: The Way God Chose to Elect. Gabe Stainaker. Might be helpful to certain folks who absolutely disdain God's Sovereignty over His creation and creatures.
Isnât that amazing how that works out there MS! I get that all the time God surely does speak through his faithful servants. It was like that with me and another pastor I started to listen to who you like as well his initials are J.G. His words came at just the right time about a few weeks ago and everything he preached was just perfect at the time. I will listen to that sermon for sure. Thanks for sharing. I hope that my comments to Another Michael will expose where he seems to be stumbling.
Another Michael why donât you give that Sermon MS recommended a try. Please!!! If you give that sermon a try I will give you a little of my testimony and my wifeâs.
Another Michael wrote: No Kev, it is wicked to put a stumbling block in a brothers way. Since you claim to be Scriptural and hold to the DOG, would you mind reading this verse that is important to this non-Calvinist: "By Silvanus, a faithful brother as I regard him, I have written briefly to you, exhorting and declaring that this is the true grace of God. Stand firm in it." 1 Peter 5:12 "... true grace of God. Stand firm in it." I sure hope you don't have a problem with this. I think for the while I'll pay more attention to what Peter, who personally walked with Jesus, and by the Spirit wrote than those claimed to be the real experts in Scripture who came after 1517 like 1618 to 1619.
That comment made absolutely no sense. The only âstumbling blockâ I have placed before you is the word of God. It is absolutely amazing how some testify against themselves in their comments!
I am standing firm on what the whole council of the Lord teaches about Godâs Grace sorry you stumbled over some of the verses you didnât like!
Peter: 1 Peter 1
2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you..
See more of Another Michaels underhanded jabs saying we want people to âconfess Calvinâ substituting Calvin for Christ. What a wicked comment! This answers what Another Michael is saying. He thinks that the Doctrines of Grace is some man made doctrine and he is the one who knows Christ and we just know Calvin. Then he gives verse implying that we are messengers of Satan who come disguised as angels of light. Then he claims we try to push away anyone who is not a âCalvinistâ just because we correct him with scriptures.
Another Michael doesnât see how he is doing all that he says others are doing while he calls all us self righteous hipocrites and Pharisees. I just read all his comments in utter amazement as he calls us all names and makes underhanded jabs. I donât think I have said one rude thing to him but tell him the truth. Sure I might be straight forward with the man but who wouldnât after all the remarks he has made about those who tried to correct him with the word of God.
NeedHim what Michael is saying is that we all donât know Christ and we are just bringing the Doctrines of men to the table. This is that secret elitist atitude that Observer pointed out. Michael just wants us to accept him just as he is and not point out his error. He believes it is un-loving to admonish anyone with the truth then he calls anyone who doesnât agree with him a Pharisee and religious hipocrites and calls us names like âCalvinistsâ and âPinkâ when we point out his error with scriptures. He gnashes his teeth whenever we point out his error. Then he cloaks all this with flowery âlovingâ talk with anyone who just accepts him in his error and doesnât point it out. Itâs all very telling.
John Yurich USA wrote: Pastor of my Baptist Church teaches the Baptist doctrine of salvation(which is the biblical Gospel of salvation) that salvation is received by accepting Jesus as ones Lord and Savior and trusting in Him alone for salvation.
You said that Pastor Steve said Election is a satanic lie so therefore Pastor Steve is a false witness.
20 To the law and to the testimony: if they SPEAK NOT ACCORDING TO THIS WORD, it is because there is NO LIGHT IN THEM.
So either there is no light in Pastor Steve or you are lying about what he said.
If he stayed quite about matters he doesnât understand that is one thing but to speak evil of the ways of the Lord is quite another thing.
John Yurich USA wrote: One church that is not a failure is my Baptist Church that I attend faithfully every Sunday because Pastor preaches the biblical Gospel of salvation every Sunday during his sermons.
Yeah sure. Pastor Steve says that election is a satanic lie as well according to you. Sounds like Pastor Steve is a wolf who secretly hates God and inward heâs a ravening wolf leading many souls down the broad road. Unless you lied about what Pastor Steve actually said. â Hey Observer âPastorâ Steve according to John said that election is a satanic lie. Either John is a liar or âPastorâ Steve doesnât know God at all.
The scripture doesnât contradict itself and when God commands the light to shine out of darkness we see the glory of the Gospel in the light of the finished work of the cross where God according to His word is calling out a people who were chosen in Christ since the foundation of the world and He is the Good Shepherd as He cannot fail and no one can pluck His people from His hand. This verse comes to mind. Hopefully we can all take after the bereans and search the scriptures to see what others say is so.
2 Corinthians 4:2-6
2 But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.
3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
5 For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.
6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
Ivan Karamazov wrote: What good is it to pray for him when it was preordained before the foundation of the world?
Your comment shows you donât know the nature of prayer. It would be better for you to have the fear of God and not make comments on things you donât understand (what if we are in fact right Ivan and you are speaking evil about the ways of God!). The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. I would start there Ivan. Ladybugs comment is spot on. Do you actually believe the Bible Ivan? Read those verses carefully.
What a great quote Sister Ladybug! I agree with Spurgeon to the tee anyone studying how these words are used in the Bible see the way the more than 2,000 year old Koinea Greek used these terms. We know that Christ said that He lays down His life for His sheep and they are His sheep before they even believe thatâs why they do believe! His sheep hear His voice in the call of His Gospel and a hireling they will not follow! We know that according to Spurgeon and quotes he gave that to preach the Gospel is to preach limited atonement and such fundamental Doctrines of the faith as we know Jesus shall save His people from their sins. So what Gospel is someone preaching if they donât proclaim the finished work of Christ who actually saves a particular people out of the world by His effectual call in the Gospel brought on by a supernatural work of the Holy Spirit according to the scriptures? Now Michael will call us all kinds of names like he has in the past because we simply tell him the truth. Reminds me of that verse âam I your enemy because I tell you the truth?â
Just know that Charles Spurgeon though that your understanding of the atonement is ârepulsiveâ Another Michael.
Charles Spurgeon If Christ on His cross intended to save every man, then He intended to save those who were lost before He died. If the doctrine be true, that He died for all men, then He died for some who were in Hell before He came into this world, for doubtless there were even then myriads there who had been cast away because of their sins. . . That seems to me a conception a thousand times more repulsive than any of those consequences which are said to be associated with the Calvinistic and Christian doctrine of special and particular redemption. To think that my Savior died for men who were or are in Hell, seems a supposition too horrible for me to entertain. (Autobiography: 1, The Early Years, p. 172)
I believe you know whatâs right John I learned a lot from you back in the day. I wonder if since you believe them and you know Another Michael doesnât and when you see others who donât you just stay silent. That doesnât make sense to me John.
You should just drop the whole thing with Ladybug and not start to stir things up the minute she leaves. She said she was going to drop it but you havenât. You said Ladybug likes to cause arguments but I see many times where you start them as well.
So you donât believe itâs our place to admonish someone in truth, especially a brother?
John UK you say you believe in the Doctrines of Grace and everyone knows Another Michael has a disdain of them. Donât you feel you should admonish Another Michael about why the Doctrines of Grace are in fact biblical? But it seems whenever the subject comes up it is always crickets from you. What if Another Michael secretly thinks that if God is a God who chooses some to salvation and not others than God is an unfair mean God? Would that be considered worshiping the God of the Bible if one doesnât really accept Him in what He has revealed about Himself in His word?
Since Ladybug said she was going to drop it why do you backbite her when she has stoped and compare her to the Pharisees and what not. You and Another Michael arenât so innocent as you guys like to makes yourselves out to be. â Dr. Tim I liked your comment â Ezekiel 36 25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments...
You guys all hit the nail on the head with this conversation over here. Excellent comments to all. Imagine someone with the firmness of standing for Godâs truth like Sister Ladybug and the gentleness of Christopher. Boy that would be the the combination. We can learn from Observer as he is obviously very well read being such a seasoned Christian and all. We could get some of our humor from Tim and some of our gentleness from James. The great taste in pastors of MS, the knowledge of scripture of Lurker, the poetic touch of IGN E. The great taste in food from our Miss. Brothers Look at all the gifts that each person has we should be able to all learn from each other and submit to one another as we submit to the word of God. I give all your comments a hearty amen.